Ep. 174: Navigating the New Office: Pay Transparency

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Network ID: LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel: From the News Team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel.

Sarah Storm: And I'm Sarah Storm.

Jessi Hempel: And this is Hello Monday.

Jessi Hempel:

Not long ago, I was scrolling through LinkedIn when I landed on a post from a colleague, McKenna Moore. It was blowing up. In the post, McKenna talked about how much she got paid. And I have to say, it made me squirm because when I started my career, pay was something you just didn't talk about at all to your friends or your colleagues.

So I called up McKenna and I asked her straight. Why did you post on pay transparency? Why did you feel so comfortable doing that? I mean, in all caps no less. It's not your style.

McKenna Moore:

Yeah. No, not typically.

Jessi Hempel:

No, but that was- that was the only thing in all caps. But what you did do was you described your own personal journey, your first paychecks at Fortune, which were, I'm just gonna say it, somewhat abysmal-

McKenna Moore:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

... for the work that you were doing. And then you went and you announced your salary at LinkedIn, the place we both work on LinkedIn.

McKenna Moore:

Yes. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

And I thought, whoa. So what led you to do that?

McKenna Moore:

To me, it never really made sense that pay wouldn't be something that's talked about, especially between colleagues. At the beginning of my journey, um, I was really excited about what I was making. I was making 55,000 at Fortune and I was like, "Oh my god. I'm working at this national publication. I'm the coolest person to have ever been born and this is the beginning of my amazing career."

Jessi Hempel:

And then you tried to live on 55,000 dollars in New York City.

McKenna Moore:

In New York City in, uh, 2018, which that came crashing down really quickly. Uh, life here is really expensive and I'm from Ohio so 55,000 for a starting salary in Columbus, Ohio is astronomical. That's awesome. Uh, but here, it's not awesome. And I quickly learned that it was going to be a problem. Um, and then I also, uh, helped to start and lead the union at Fortune, uh, which was a very contentious battle which is still going on and we learned about the pay transparency or the pay equity issues at Fortune and that's what really got me going and really got me into this topic. And if me making a little post telling people what I make helps at all make somebody realize that they deserve more money-

Jessi Hempel:

What do you make at LinkedIn right now and how do you feel about it?

McKenna Moore:

I make 105,000 dollars, um, as a base salary and then I also get a yearly bonus around 10,000 dollars and I received 100,000 dollars in equity. And I feel amazing about it.

Jessi Hempel:

Did any of your colleagues say anything?

McKenna Moore:

Yes. Uh, people were pretty shocked and they said they were happy that I was talking about this and it led to more conversations and I think I have a better understanding and many of the people that I work with have a better understanding of what we all make and where we all stand. Um, and it seems pretty equal here, uh, which is really exciting.

Jessi Hempel:

What McKenna did is increasingly common. There's this move afoot, particularly among people at the start of their careers to open up about what they make. So today, for the fifth episode in our Navigating the New Office series, I'm gonna talk to two people who can help us understand pay transparency. And then Sarah's gonna join me so that we can make sense of it together.

Jessi Hempel:

In a bit, you'll hear from HR expert, Allison Venditti. But first, Hannah Williams asks strangers what they make and then she publishes her interviews on TikTok. Her account is called Salary Transparent Street. Once you start watching it, you won't be able to look away. Hannah is three years out of college. In her own experience in her first few jobs, it showed her that people just don't talk about salaries. So she started Salary Transparent Street originally as a side hustle.

Hannah Williams:

You know, it's so much simpler than it sounds. I knew I was gonna ask a very taboo question that people were not really (laughs) gonna be comfortable responding to so I had to brand myself. Like, I had to give myself a purpose and a mission and no just look like a total random person asking this question on the street. So I got a 30 dollar logo made on Fiverr. I got a t-shirt. I coerced my fiance into coming out and filming me with my iPhone. I got a really cheap mic off of Amazon and I just went to like, a high traffic foot area in the D.C. area.

Jessi Hempel:

Tell me about the first person you asked.

Hannah Williams:

So. Nerve wracking. I think the first time I did it was horrible. Like, all these people were passing by me and I had to keep trying to like, push myself like, ask them. Ask this person. You know? And then once I did the first once, it got so much easier from there. I was so surprised at first how people were open to it. I haven't had a single person yet be very aggressive or antagonistic with me about the question. I've had nothing but people be excited or they just wave me off 'cause they see a clipboard.

Jessi Hempel:

How do you frame the question? What do you actually say?

Hannah Williams:

Yeah. So my spiel is I tell people I have a series on TikTok called Salary Transparent Street where I advocate for pay transparency by interviewing people and asking them what they do and how much they make. Could I interview you? And then once they get that, I'm like, okay. You're hooked. (laughs) I'm gonna tell you exactly what I'm about and usually, they're on board. We ask anybody but we've seen a huge trend, I guess, in who says yes and who says no.

Hannah Williams:

Almost always, it's the yes is from younger- younger people like, under, I would say under 35 is yes. Over 35 is like, 80 percent no. (laughs) So they really don't wanna talk to us. And there's also a- a little bit of a discrepancy with gender and with race. Like, we see a lot of women who wanna talk to us over men. Men seem more shy. And I would also argue men seem- I would argue they lie more. (laughs) Which also is an interesting conversation.

Jessi Hempel:

Oh, yeah. How can you tell? How can you tell?

Hannah Williams:

I can't and I give them all the benefit of the doubt. But, you know I think a lot of people know what their number is and so when there's a lot of hesitation and then when they give a range and there's like, 40K in between the range, if you're not a salesperson, I kind of question it. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

And much like height, money is not at all a good representation of who you are in the world and what you are worth. Right?

Hannah Williams:

Exactly. And that's what makes it sad to me that it seems like a lot of men lie about it because I think it's this- the patriarchy, they don't wanna look like they're lesser than or that they're- you know, they can't provide for their families. Like, there's a lot of conversation about what pay means in terms of how it represents you. You know, it could mean you're a provider or not. It could mean you're strong or you're not and that's so incorrect. Like, we need to realize that your pay says absolutely nothing about your value, your intelligence, who are you or what you bring to society. It's just a number and it's highly likely that you're underpaid.

Jessi Hempel:

Well, so what does your business think about the fact that you have chosen to-

Hannah Williams:

(laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

... speak so much about your- your own salary and other peoples' salaries?

Hannah Williams:

Yeah. They haven't said anything negative about it and also, might quit pursue Salary Transparent Street and building this full-time. So not really my problem anymore. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs)

Hannah Williams:

But also, I knew that I was- I was legally allowed to do it. It's realistic that a lot of, um, employees have to sign NDAs that their companies encourage them to not talk about their pay and that there's legal protections with that. So that shouldn't be the case. It's illegal. Um, luckily, I was in a position where I could freely talk about my pay so I exercise that right.

Jessi Hempel:

So one indicator that it's clearly a taboo thing to talk about culturally is the fact that when you started to do that, um, your videos went viral very quickly.

Hannah Williams:

Yes.

Jessi Hempel:

People couldn't look away. Right?

Hannah Williams:

(laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

Um, so what has been the impact of that?

Hannah Williams:

It's been great. First and foremost, it's been wonderful on my end. But I just think that it exploded this conversation that needs to happen. I'm seeing it on Twitter. I'm seeing it on Instagram. I'm seeing it on LinkedIn that people are realizing that, oh, crap. We've been in the dark for decades now and if I know what my colleague is making then I can ask for what I deserve. We previously have not known what the budgets are for roles that we apply for but once we know what that is, you're gonna make sure that you're not underpaid. And so there's just real strength and impact that comes from that and it's been- it's growing this amazing thing.

Hannah Williams:

We're all concerned with our pay, especially with inflation, rising gas costs, the housing market right now. But the one thing we're not talking about is how much we make and that's directly related to our success and how we survive in this economy and in this country. So once we start talking about it, there's really no stopping it. We just need to normalize those conversations in our society.

Hannah Williams:

But part of that is also coming to the realization that we need to remove the personal connection that we think we have with our pay from what that number is. We need to stop thinking that our pay says anything about who we are and just see it as a number.

Jessi Hempel:

So I'm catching up with you, Hannah, at a moment when I love that I got you in this moment.

Hannah Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

You have left the security of a job that paid you, uh, 115,000 dollars a year.

Hannah Williams:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

And I'm gonna assume had good benefits.

Hannah Williams:

Yes. (laughs) Decent. I didn't have paid maternity leave.

Jessi Hempel:

Uh, yeah.

Hannah Williams:

(laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

Not great benefits.

Hannah Williams:

That's a big one.

Jessi Hempel:

Not great benefits. Um, but you're moving toward this entrepreneurial venture. Right?

Hannah Williams:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Um, so what do you know about what entrepreneurs get paid? And how-

Hannah Williams:

No.

Jessi Hempel:

... are your earning prospects figuring into what you're doing right now?

Hannah Williams:

Yeah. You know, they're looking great. I definitely wouldn't have quit my job if there wasn't good earning potential and, you know, I did my research. I feel like I'm in this prime opportunity and position where I had a successful career, I've set aside enough money to keep myself going for as long as I can. Maybe that's a couple months. I have support from my fiance who is still working. So I'm just in a position where I can take that leap of faith and support myself for a couple months.

Hannah Williams:

But I also know that the earning potential is there. We've already done a brand partnership with Cleo, which is a financial money management tool for m- uh, millennials and gen Z. They're great. And, you know, that- I can't talk about the number until the period, um, has elapsed of the time that we've worked together but it's good enough that I can definitely make more doing this than I did at my nine to five. But truly, it's the fact that I'm passionate about what I'm doing. It's something that, like you mentioned, I've been looking for that passion in my career and really, I realized that it- to me, that passion doesn't come from being on someone else's time or working for someone else or doing data analysis.

Hannah Williams:

It's having purpose in what I do every single day. And this gives me purpose.

Jessi Hempel:

That was Hannah Williams of Salary Transparent Street. Check it out. We're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back, I sit down with an HR expert to learn some practical tips on how to talk about what we make.

Jessi Hempel:

And we're back. My next guest today is Allison Venditti. She's a Canadian career coach and an HR expert. Allison thinks we should all be talking more about money and she has some very clear ideas about how we can do that.

Allison Venditti:

So pay transparency as a idea is actually better represented by calling it pay secrecy because the current structure in most corporations is that your pay is a secret. It's rude to talk about money. It's rude to talk about whatever. And my response as someone who has been in HR for 20 years, who has understood the implications for corporate and for individuals is to say, "Why? Why is it rude? Who said that it's rude to talk about money?" The idea behind salary secrecy is really that it makes it harder for you to ask for more money. It makes it harder for you to understand the systems at play.

Jessi Hempel:

In fact, it seems like it just replicates biases that already exist in our system because if you are-

Allison Venditti:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

... a person who was not conditioned to talk about money or ask about money, you are less likely to do so behind closed doors. I love the phrase pay secrecy. Who loses when we're talking about pay secrecy?

Allison Venditti:

So pay secrecy is one of the biggest contributors to the gender wage gap. It impacts people of color, individuals who have disabilities. So generally, it impacts everybody except companies. (laughs) So companies win, people lose. So when people ask, they're like, "Oh, this is, you know, who does it impact?" I was like, "Really, it impacts everybody." And being on the employer side though, it impacts me too as an HR person. Right? It makes my job harder to hire people because then I have to go through this annoying process that...

Allison Venditti:

Frankly, I started working in HR when I was in a unionized job. I didn't know this was a thing because every job post in a unionized role comes with a pay on it because everybody knows what everybody makes. We have a collective agreement and so when I started telling people, when I started my first HR job, I said, "Well, here's the range for the role." My boss came to and he's like, "Don't do that. Don't- don't do- don't do that." I was like, "Well, why? 'Cause it saves a lot of time in telling people 'cause then I don't have to go through the whole process without telling them. What happens if they get to the third interview and they find out that we're not paying enough?"

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs) Right.

Allison Venditti:

And they just didn't have an answer for that and I- then I was convinced. I'm like, this is the stupidest thing ever. So- and that's basically when-

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

... my fight started and that was like, 15 years ago.

Jessi Hempel:

I wanna know why, um, people are talking about pay transparency again, especially right now. What is the conten- or an angle for this?

Allison Venditti:

The angle is that DEI is a thing except that people were focused on the D and pay is the only factor in work in terms of equity. So I am very uninterested in people talking to me about their DEI initiatives and how they're going to make people feel belonging and feel whatever and show that they're valued. I'm like, then show me the money. Show women that they're being paid equitably to men. Show people of color so that we can build this transparency and this trust. Without it, I'm very uninterested in these like, initiatives and programs and whatever. I'm like, the number one way you can show employees that they are valued and this is an equitable organization is to show them how much they're paid. That is the only factor in a job when we're talking equity.

Jessi Hempel:

And of course, some companies are actually starting to do this proactively, to do it even though they're not required to do it. Right?

Allison Venditti:

Sort of. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

Ish. (laughs)

Allison Venditti:

I will say sort of because, look, like, Microsoft is getting- is getting ahead of the curve but when you're hiring remote employees and Colorado has legislation and New York has legislation and Canadian provinces, the EU is talking about pay transparency, in my mind, that's not really proactive. It's just preparing for the inevitable. That's how I see it.

Jessi Hempel:

So let's talk about the inevitable. Because that state legislation, right? And you say that it's happening-

Allison Venditti:

Yep.

Jessi Hempel:

... in some places in Canada as well. Um, even though it may only be right now Colorado, now New York, um, it's really significant. Right?

Allison Venditti:

It's huge.

Jessi Hempel:

So- so help me understand significance here.

Allison Venditti:

Okay. So when companies are required by law to, A, not have you disclose your previous salary, which is usually part of the legislation, is this- they will ask you what you are making now. So women who are, you know, on average, paid 15 percent less than men, will disclose that they're underpaid already and then their new salary will be underpaid yet again. So this is a pattern and a cycle that we're trying to break. We're trying to break that cycle by not allowing this. By opening it, we're not asking for a specific number. We're asking for a range. That, by clearing the way and making it open, we allow people to move into equitable band.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. This is what some companies are beginning to adopt. Right? Uh, like, making these bands public. But, uh, another thing that we're seeing and something that we talk about, um, earlier in this episode is we're actually seeing like, some cohort of people simply being more comfortable with talking about how much they're being paid. And of course, it's funny like, what we understand about whether you're even allowed to have that conversation. Right? It's in your employer's best- best interest for you to think that, actually, that's just not something people talk about. But increasingly, people do. Right?

Allison Venditti:

Increasingly, people do. I run an organization for women and that's the number one thing I say, is like, being on the other side of the table in that negotiation, all the power sits on the employer's side. So as soon as you get on the phone with a recruiter, I tell people to just right off the bat, ask. I have never recruited for a position in my career that I didn't know what the salary range was. You know why? Because companies don't go out an hire people when they don't have a budget. They don't go out and hire people if they don't have some concept of what they're doing. So I call garbage on that stuff. They know.

Allison Venditti:

And so the first thing you can do because it takes a lot of time to write a resume, sit through three rounds of interviews, like, we're talking 10 to 15 hours unpaid. But people need to know that.

Jessi Hempel:

Mm-hmm.

Allison Venditti:

So that we're saving-

Jessi Hempel:

Mm-hmm.

Allison Venditti:

... time and energy on both sides of the table.

Jessi Hempel:

Now, here, Allison, you said something that I just wanna revisit and make sure that our listeners really understand, which is when you get on the phone with that recruiter or the HR person, whoever's about to make you that offer and you finally get to the point where they're making you that offer, that- in that moment, you- you can and in fact, should ask what the salary window is. And you're- you're looking at me and our listeners can't see you because we're audio but you're looking at me like, well, duh.

Jessi Hempel:

But I just wanna point out here, especially for those who may be at the beginning of their career, that you need to understand that that by the time you get to that call, it's gonna be way more work for the company to decide not to hire you than to just give you that information. And I think that there's a certain fear that a listener has that like, well, if I ask a question like that, are they gonna think- are they gonna realize that I'm like, too demanding or too assertive or a pain? And so you don't feel empowered to ask those questions.

Allison Venditti:

I want to remind job seekers, as an HR person, I don't care. It's not my money.

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs)

Allison Venditti:

It's not like you're coming into my house and, you know, de- and it's like, I have a range sitting in front of me. You would like to ask, I would be happy to tell you that. The only reason that doesn't work is that you have some really old school recruiters, you have someone who's company doesn't believe in these ethics and things and then you have to really ask yourself, if someone's fighting me at the beginning of a job offer process about the money that I'm going to be paid to do a job for them, do I really wanna be working for them?

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. That's a pretty important distinction. Right? Just the culture around it. Yeah. So then you also enter a world in which if there is more of a culture around ta- talking openly about how much one gets paid, there are also cultural implications around that in the workplace that are a little bit new or hard to navigate. How have you seen that play out?

Allison Venditti:

So I've seen it play out in very angry resignations when our top salespeople, mostly women, find out that they're paid 35 percent less than their male coworkers. There are implications in social media where people are sharing these experiences of big companies and I find it very hard to feel bad for those companies where I'm like, you did that to them- yourself. You did that by not putting in the world for equity and support. Like, so millions of dollars on ad campaigns to hire senior women and keep women and the- the way you do that is to value people. It's to pay them.

Allison Venditti:

The easiest way to do that though 'cause people, you know, if I said, "How much money do you make?" You'd be like, "I don't really wanna talk to that." You can play what's called the over under game. So you can ask your coworker, "Hey, do you make over 100,000 dollars or under 100?" That's easier for people to talk about.

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs)

Allison Venditti:

So if I go in there and I'm making 80 and you just say, "Oh, I make over." Now we have a problem. But you didn't tell me-

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

... how much you make.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. Right.

Allison Venditti:

It's more comfortable.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. This is totally more comfortable.

Allison Venditti:

Right.

Jessi Hempel:

But you still have that problem. Right? So how do you navigate that problem? Particularly when we all know that it's not appropriate for one's manager to talk to one about like, one's colleagues. Right? If I come to you and I'm like, "Allison, you're my boss. I just discovered that Sarah, our producer, is making twice as much as me and I'm angry. Why is she making so much?" That's an awkward conversation that we haven't learned how to have effectively in the workplace yet.

Allison Venditti:

But it's not a conversation that you've been encouraged to have. It's a societal norm. So the same way that women weren't allowed to have bank accounts. Right? (laughs) Up until the '80s.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

That was a norm. Talking about money-

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

... women, specifically women of color in many cultures are taught that it is rude and to not do it. And by not doing it, women retire with way less savings, we have way more career gaps, we have all sorts of other things stacked against us. This is a very simple way to help and so it is imperative that other people do this work for people who can't. And that's why I'm doing it. I am an entrepreneur. Now, I can say-

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

... all of these things out loud. People within corporate can't do that. They're not there yet. But by legislating it, we make it a norm.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. And the thing that you want legislated, is the introduction of a conversation around salary bands, do you want us to be talking about our salaries more specifically than that? Or is that the thing that will cause the change?

Allison Venditti:

So when we talk about the gender gap, I- I get really frustrated with researchers where they're like, "It's just a piece of a bigger problem and we need to address the bigger problem." I'm- but the key is we don't. So the gender wage gap hasn't really changed in a very long time because it's too much of a big problem so you really have to pick away at it. Pay transparency is a really easy way to start and it will showcase the fact that it's very difficult if you put a part-time job and a full-time job with the same title and the same requirement, except one's part-time, one's full-time and this one pays, you know, 25 less because we're valuing part-time jobs less. Then these conversations become more open. Well, why is that part-time role valued less than the full-time with the same requirements? So that's-

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Allison Venditti:

These open up a lot of other conversations about how this is done.

Jessi Hempel:

I wanna point out that they- that having these conversations, if you are in a place to have them, um, that probably already means that you have a certain amount of privilege in our society. You talked about your role as an entrepreneur-

Allison Venditti:

Yes.

Jessi Hempel:

... allowing you the opportunity to have this conversation and so it almost forces you to feel the n- that it is necessary. Like, that you can be an agent of social change. You have the privilege to do that.

Allison Venditti:

Exactly.

Jessi Hempel:

The one thing I'm just curious about is it seems like a generation of younger people entering the workforce today seem to have a different sensibility for how to talk about this and seem to be much more open about talking about their pay. One colleague of mine who we heard from at the top of the episode, she's a colleague of mine here at LinkedIn. She posted on LinkedIn about her pay, announcing her pay in a post on LinkedIn. Do you suspect that this is a generational change that's happening? Or do you have a sense that as people get more senior, their sensibilities will shift?

Allison Venditti:

Both. I think the tides are turning in so many ways. It's that when we approach a real reckoning around equity, when we approach a real understanding that we don't want the world to look this way anymore, then things have to shift. And one of the powers and privilege is absolutely money. It absolutely is. And people who cannot afford to have these very hard hitting conversations because they can't lose their job or you need those health benefits, you will not be the ones to have this job to do to talk about pay transparency.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Allison Venditti:

That's why legislation-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Allison Venditti:

... is important. But we know that the people who are actually having these pay transparency conversations are senior women and we are seeing more women in senior leadership roles than we have ever seen before. Ever.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Allison Venditti:

And they are having these conversations because they are paid less than their male counterparts. And if it's happening to women who are at that level, it is absolutely happening to women at lower levels. It's not enough to just scream something out into the void to say, "I want pay transparency."

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Allison Venditti:

You have to bring it to the table.

Jessi Hempel:

I love that and I so appreciate the work that you're doing, Allison. It's great to have you on the show.

Allison Venditti:

Thanks for having me.

Jessi Hempel:

That was Allison Venditti. You can follow her on LinkedIn. You can also check her out on thisismomsatwork.com. There, you'll find a lot of free resources around equity and pay transparency, especially around how to have these important conversations. Now, I'm gonna bring back Sarah. Hey, Sarah.

Sarah Storm:

Hey, Jessi.

Jessi Hempel:

Wow. That episode. So Allison was really helpful to me because I felt that she framed things well in the context of business and government moving in the direction of pay transparency. Right?

Sarah Storm:

Mm-hmm. She frames the whole reason that an individual might wanna share their pay or their pay range in a completely different way. It's about moving the equity needle for everyone.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Sarah Storm:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

And in fact, she makes a case for why businesses should be required to do this because why should this information be secret? And who does it help? And who does it hurt?

Sarah Storm:

Absolutely. And it's about 15 hours of unpaid labor to apply to a job in her estimation. And also, people on the other side of that are reviewing applications. Like, it's- it's part of somebody else's workflow. But by not disclosing salary ranges, everyone operates at a disadvantage because you might get all the way down the road with a future employer or a future employee and then it was never tenable because the pay range just doesn't work.

Jessi Hempel:

So Allison has me completely sold on the importance of pay transparency. But it feels to me like she was talking about is slightly different than what Hannah and McKenna were talking about. They're both toward the beginning of their careers.

Sarah Storm:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

And they're both, um, operating from the mindset of the individual, the employee, the worker, um, and trying to speak up for the fact that like, young people don't get spoken to enough about this and don't speak to each other enough about this and they kinda lose out.

Sarah Storm:

The people who did not know that it was legal to talk about what one makes was a little bit staggering but it's made so deliberately uncomfortable that it's hard to have those conversations. This is why I think that what Hannah is doing is so cool because she's just approaching people on the street, making them a little uncomfortable, sitting with them in that moment and getting to what she wants. And also why I think it's so powerful what McKenna and people like McKenna are taking this sort of br- this brave stance of doing online.

Jessi Hempel:

So I think that one thing about the place where they both are is that it is easier to disclose this information when you're at the very beginning of your career ladder. Whatever direction your ladder goes in. Sideways, backwards, up, down, round and round. It gets harder as you get more senior, I think. And so I just wanna end this by saying that a decade from now, Sarah, we'll still be putting Hello Monday out, I assume.

Sarah Storm:

(laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

Um, I think we should check in with McKenna again and see if she is, um, still willing to disclose her salary so willingly.

Sarah Storm:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

And of course, I wanna know what everyone out there thinks on this topic. So let's keep the conversation going. We're going to meet as we always do, Wednesday afternoon at 3:00 p.m. Eastern for office hours. Bring your coffee or your water or your tea or whatever you're drinking. Sarah and I always do. You can find us on the LinkedIn News Page.

Sarah Storm:

And as always, if you like this show, please follow and review it wherever you get your podcasts. We say it, we ask for it because it really helps so much.

Jessi Hempel:

It really does and it takes two seconds. If you're like, "How do I even do that?" I mean, drop us an email at [email protected]. We'll tell you. Drop us an email any time you want. We love to hear from you. So today's show, Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. Sarah Storm produces our show with mixing by Joe DiGiorgi. Florencia Iriondo is Head of Original Audio and Video. Dave Pond is Head of News Production. Michaela Greer and Victoria Taylor help us work toward a more equitable future. Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn.

Jessi Hempel:

I'm Jessi Hempel.

Sarah Storm:

And I'm Sarah Storm.

Jessi Hempel:

We'll be back next Monday.

Sarah Storm:

Thanks for listening.

Hannah Williams:

It's usually the really tall people that intimidate me 'cause I'm only 5'1 so (laughs) I'm like, how am I gonna get the mic- (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs)

Hannah Williams:

... in the right area. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel:

I love that. I'm 5'2 and three quarters. Uh, three quarters being very important-

Hannah Williams:

Nice.

Jessi Hempel:

... to me when I tell people that.

Hannah Williams:

Absolutely.

Jessi Hempel:

And I have a theory about height, Hannah, which is that there are-

Hannah Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

... um, short short people, short medium people, and short tall people. And so the first-

Hannah Williams:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

... is based on your physical height and then the second is based on your-

Hannah Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel:

... sort of charisma and emotional height and I-

Hannah Williams:

Ah.

Jessi Hempel:

... suspect that you are actually a short tall person.

Hannah Williams:

Short tall. I'd take that. Yeah. Thank you.

Jessi Hempel:

(laughs)

Hannah Williams:

I'll take- that's a compliment. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna share that with my sister.