EP 07: WTF with Jay on choosing your struggles, owning your mistakes, scalability of your business, having difficult conversations, and money

In this episode of What The Fail Meet Jing Yi Lee .

Videographer, FX trader, Business Man and now the co-owner of Brooklyn Bar which opened its doors last year and since has been crowned by Time Out for having the best fries in Singapore! After visiting Brooklyn Bar, I can also testify that they serve some of the best cocktails and tacos in town too!

We discuss the following:

• Why we have to choose the suffering in our life?
• How did he start a F&B business when he has no experience in this industry? Previously, he was in videography and FX trading industry.
• What is his relationship with failure? (Hint: he says they are really close)
• Why he gets suspicious if everything is smooth sailing in the beginning stages of a business?
• How he takes accountability for his failures?
• How does he have difficult conversations with his team, his co-owner, and his stakeholders? Especially when the conversation is around money (or lack of it).
• Why he focuses on the ability of a business to scale?
• How becoming a husband and father has influenced his approach to business?

If your life were a movie, what would it be?

John Wick because he’s always struggling through the whole damn movie. He starts with a mission and he has to struggle all the way. It reminds me of the struggles I am going through or the struggles I choose to go through. It's not your usual superhero with all the powers. He’s a human trying to make things work.

You just mentioned that you're choosing to struggle? Could you share more about what you mean by that?

This is my outlook in life, right? I don't think it's always about what you choose or what you want, nor about your dreams. In life, you don't get to choose what comes to you because that is not exactly within your control. But you can choose your own suffering.?

When I started working, I decided that I don't want to be a 9 to 5 kind of person. I refuse to go to work at the same time as everybody, go to lunch when I'm being told to, come back when the time is up. So instead I chose the suffering of doing business, struggling to make ends meet every month, struggling with cash flow problems.?That's the kind of life that I have adopted and I enjoy the process of it, the struggling part. So that's my suffering in life.

When we last met, you were running a video production company and now you are running a restaurant. How did you freaking become a person running a restaurant?

A friend from primary school reached out to me and asked if I wanted to join his photography business. I said, “yeah, why not? Let’s try!” I learnt everything from scratch, and really enjoyed working with clients, but because our business direction was different, we went our separate ways after 3 years.

That's when I started my own videography company. Again, I worked from scratch, got the clients in, did the editing, and over 7 years we had clients like PayPal, Mitsubishi, Ogilvy. It was going great. But I met a problem. Scaling the business.?

I realised that videography was not something that I could scale as a business, and I decided to change into something else. Luckily for me at that time, my friend wanted to start a finance company. We dealt in Forex, FX trading and stuff like that.

I jumped from programming to sociology to videography to finance. I always tell myself if I don't know how to do it then just learn. It's not that difficult. I myself enjoy learning a lot. So I learned how to do the FX trading. We have been going strong for five years. Last year was our five year anniversary. I'm still there but I kind of stepped down from management a year ago. So, I can focus on my new baby which is Brooklyn Bar, the F&B part.

You went from Finance to F&B. It seems like a huge jump. What made you take the plunge into F&B industry?

Okay, to me, I don't think it was a big change. Because the way I see it, finance company is a business and this is just another business, right? It doesn't matter to me what we're doing, as long as it's a business and it can scale! I think that's the most important part.

I enjoy building businesses from scratch with all of its problems because I'm kind of used to that rhythm of things. If things go too well, I do get bored. So it's just another business.?

Another reason I got into the F&B business is that I’ve always wanted a place where I can host my friends. When my friends ask me, “where do I go for new years or do you have a place in mind for us to grab a drink?”, it would be nice for me to say, “eh, why not just go over to my place?” They can hang out there comfortably, and I think it would be fun, so that’s how I ended up in the F&B business.?

How did you meet your co-founder, Mark, of your F&B place?

Me and Mark go all the way back to University days. He was one year my senior, and the type that didn't really come to school much and he slept in lectures, but we hit it off quite well. Even during my videography days, I was always visiting him at his bars to have a drink, to chat with him. He makes really bloody good cocktails, so I know he was very dedicated to his craft. He even won competitions for them!?

3 years ago, when I had the idea to build Brooklyn, I approached him to say, “hey, you have so much talent, so many ideas, why not start your own business?” He didn't want to because he said either he was not ready or the market is not ready. To me, it just sounded like excuses because he didn't want to take the plunge which I can understand because opening up a business is a huge risk.

He didn't want to do it. So next year I tried again. And then another year I tried again. And finally he said yes. Then we incorporated the company on September the 1st, 2022. We opened Brooklyn last year on 4th of July, Independence Day.?

I’m really curious towards your attitude towards life and your relationship with failure. Because when you are trying a lot of different things in new verticals, it’s not going to be smooth sailing.?

My relationship failure... I think we're f*cking good friends.

Let's take an incident that happened with Brooklyn Bar.?When I started Brooklyn, we didn't have enough capital for runway and there was not enough money to keep the place running in the beginning. That should constitute as a failure on my part because I was the one handling the finances. Because of that, we kind of got into some bad books of the suppliers.

From our supervisor to landlords, I couldn’t pay on time. The only people I don’t owe to are our staff because it’s important their life was not miserable because of my own f*ck up. It came to a point where I was digging out of my own pocket to really fund the place and make sure the place works. But thankfully last month, I could stop doing that and the company could run by itself, but now I am worried about the next month.?

So, my relationship to failure is that it always happens in the beginning. It doesn't happen three or four years down the road. I'm happy that the failures start early, so I get to learn when the stakes are not as high. In fact, I am wary, and to a certain extent even uncomfortable when the business seems to do well right from the start!?

Oh really? Why is that?

The business might become a one trick pony, and that is very dangerous because, it means that whatever you are doing, you will not be changing that. You have seen it work. There's no reason for you to change your business model because your first two years was profitable.

Especially in an industry that I don’t have much experience in, I would question “why is everything working?” There's always this voice at the back of my head saying, “this is f**king dangerous, you better check thoroughly on everything!”

To me a normal business usually is on the verge of failure for the first year, but by seeing through all these moments, I can accumulate my learnings, and the second year onwards, it can be a successful one.?

How would you define failure in your life then??

I think failure for me is giving up. I'm kind of a stubborn person. For example, when people told me that it’s not a good market to do F&B for various reasons, I still did it. Because I feel that you only really fail when you give up. There's always some way that you can do to make things work. I always believe that. By hook or by crook, there is a way out.

Even if you call quits on a project and move on to the next one, I wouldn’t consider it a failure if you have a plan for the next one. It's only a big failure when you say that, “this shit don't work. I'm gonna give it up.” And you don’t have a next plan.?

It seems like to you, failure is walking away and not learning from it to build something better next. You started Brooklyn based on what you knew then and you had to start somewhere?

I think on that part, it was more like a hot-blooded decision to say, “yeah lah, no problem lah, let's go lah!” But you wouldn’t know until you actually tried, you know?

But on the other spectrum of just going for it, is not doing anything at all, because we keep waiting for the perfect moment, and then it might not pan out at all?

I would agree and disagree on that point because on hindsight when I look back, I should have seen it coming. It's not my first business venture. I was dealing with finances. I should have known that you need money to have a runway. I talk about it to friends sometimes but the thing is that at that point of time, I was so bored I wanted to start something immediately. So to say that I could not have known, I think that's a very convenient excuse for me. That is just a mistake on my part. I'll just have to own it.

I like how you say you have to own it because taking accountability is not an easy thing. A lot of people find it difficult to admit when they've made mistakes. Especially to say it out loud. How did this hard conversation with your co-founder go?

I think hard conversations like this are made easy the moment you own up to the mistake. It makes things so much clearer. If someone is trying to hide their mistakes or to cover it up, they are making it a very hard time for themselves as well as the team, because everyone is second guessing everybody else. What’s the point??

My take on it is that if you had a mistake for the first time, we sit down, we discuss, we rectify the problem, and if it's not such a big mistake, we let it slide. Then you don’t do it a second time.?

If you do it a second time, then obviously there is a problem either personality wise or you don't believe that this is such a big problem that it warrants you to change your behaviour. Then now we have a problem because of this!

We are all learning, even experienced people can make mistakes. They are still human. That’s how it is. I want to build a place where people are not reprimanded for their wrongdoings. Because we live in a Singapore society, and frankly, my ethnicity is Chinese, it's all about shame. They shame you every chance they get. You get 99 out of 100, shame. What about that one mark? Shame. It's not about the 99 that you have scored, it's always the one that is missing. So I don't think that's fair to the people who are already trying their best.?

I think by fostering a culture where your team feels psychologically safe, they feel like they can admit when they’ve made a mistake and you can work together to rectify it.

You mentioned that you couldn’t pay the bills to some very important stakeholders on time. Without their support, you wouldn’t even be able to run your business. How did you handle the situation when you couldn’t pay them on time?

In managing the bar, I wear different hats – the boss when with staff, the businessman when dealing with suppliers. When facing financial challenges, transparency is key.

Businessmen appreciate certainty; vague promises create unease. I inform vendors promptly, offering a clear timeline for payment. It's crucial to present solutions, not just problems. I find that people are more receptive when you have a solution for them that will benefit both parties. A clear plan eliminates uncertainties, fostering trust in a volatile business environment.

When we were talking earlier, you said that in order for you to get excited about a business, you also need to think about the potential for the scalability of that business. How do you define scalability??

Scalability, to me, is about pushing the business's limits. Brooklyn can scale horizontally by opening more bars and venturing into events, HR, and real estate. The ultimate goal is to own buildings, providing consultation, food, and drinks. Vertical scaling involves offering exclusive, expensive products, but my focus lies in the excitement of horizontal expansion.

Beyond adaptability, scalability intertwines with profitability. The confidence in scaling lies in the assurance that expansion translates into self-monetisation, generating profits and revenues. The focus extends beyond the glamour of growth, delving into the financial aspect, where scalability is measured not just by size but by sustainable profitability. It's a holistic approach that considers both operational and financial aspects, ensuring that each step of scaling contributes to the overall success and stability of the business.

What is your relationship with money? How much money do you think you need to be happy?

Money to me on the business level is a scorecard. Money to me on the personal level is freedom. With enough money, I can go into any shop, anywhere, and buy anything I want or need. That is the freedom money gives.

How much I need is a big question though? Like, it's never enough? The more you earn, the more there is always something to buy. Because we are in this society of capitalism, we are taught to consume. Everything that is built around us is telling us to consume.

So everyone is trying to make someone else consume. That is the whole system, society. You say I opened a bar because I want to serve people. No, I want you to consume. I want you to be buying drinks. I want you to be buying food. To feel happy about that. So I can enhance their happiness from there.

Does that mean that you don't have a number where you think this will be enough for me, as a person? Or do you think, no matter how much I get, I will always have a part of me that wants a bit more??

Perhaps this can tie into one of my fail moments. Back when I was in the finance side and business was going great, I was making 60K to 80K a month, my lifestyle slowly crept up; bigger cars, eating out everyday, expensive watches.

But when things slow down, I realise that I actually cannot afford the restaurants or cars anymore. I am forced to downgrade. And that period of time also coincided with the time I just started Brooklyn, and all the money had to be poured into renovations, and other invoices. I had to sell my watches, downgrade my car, and even stopped sending my wife to work to save the cost of going through ERP.

Thankfully I was able to turn it around fast enough. But it had long lasting effects on me. I think I was on the verge of depression. I would wake up and don't feel like doing anything for the day. I'm just feeling kind of sad because things are not working. Sometimes, it would seem fine, I would be happy, and then suddenly I'll get hit by this wave of depressive thoughts.

I had to snap out of it and put my energy behind how I can find ways to make it work. The power creep and lifestyle creep came in stages, and for me to come down all the way, it had a huge impact on me. I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't go back to how I was spending my money before. What good is a $600 tee-shirt? I have told myself that I'm gonna be investing more into assets, buying assets that give me more returns. So, I want to be doing that if I go back to the same state I was back then.

Has your priorities and the way you go about building your business changed now that you are a husband and father?

That's a good question. Now that I think of it, maybe family was the reason why I put so much emphasis on scalability. Because I am no longer able to work myself to the bone for the company, even if the company is my own. So I'm always looking at,"how can I free myself up? I need to earn more money so I can hire more people so that I can free myself up."

My philosophy in business is that if I were to start a business, I cannot be the one that needs to be there all the time. If you're working for someone, you're spending your time for money. If I'm doing the business, it should be me spending my money so that I can have time. It's the other way round.

What is an advice on hindsight that has failed you?

This is tough for me because I have always led a life where I tell myself that the biggest regret that will happen to me is that I don't do things my way. I am so stubborn, people had stopped giving me advice.

But prior to me opening Brooklyn, a friend sent me a video about the cost breakdown for a restaurant, and it said it's gonna cost 200-300K. At that time, I didn't have that much runway but I went ahead anyway. Usually, with my finance background, I should have known.

So in a way, you failed to take your own advice?

Yep, I did!

Is there a shoutout you would like to do for Brooklyn?

Brooklyn is for anyone who's looking for a place to chill with friends, with great company, great food and drinks. Drop by anytime!

What The Fail is on a mission to reshape our relationship with failure in Asian societies. Recognising the prevailing stigma attached to failing, we believe that true innovation and progress are impossible without acknowledging failure as a vital component of the journey.

At What The Fail, entrepreneurs and thought leaders get unfiltered and candid about their journeys, the profound lessons they have learnt, and the paths they are on now.

This newsletter series is a long-form content that captures the discussion between Shilpa S Nath (Founder, What The Fail) and the guest.