a conversation with tech leaders

What makes a good leader? Well, according to Forbes - it's a woman*.

To (massively) simplify the research; there is a trend of women "outperforming" men in the key traits that make a good leader (self-awareness, social skills, kindness, emotional intelligence, humility, etc.), and men score higher on the "dark side personality traits" (aggression, psychopathy, Machiavellian behavior, etc.).

But I'm not here to write about how we're (statistically) better - I'm here to write about why everyone thinks we're worse and how it is impacting individuals, companies and, for lack of better wording, literally the entire world. Estimations show that gender inequality is costing us $23,620 per person; $160 trillion (with a T - that's one million million. A trillion seconds is 31,709.8 years. And this is 160 of them.) globally.

This month, I have Destinee Day (Finotta), Ati Ghoreyshi (Octave) and Lisa Friscia, SHRM-SCP (Franca Consulting) joining me to talk about the differences between managing and leading, how they have combatted being a minority in meeting rooms, and their advice for those that want to be leaders. The topics and statements that they make are reflective of their general experiences within tech.

the world's GDP is $12 trillion lower today than if we advanced to gender equality

*This is not just Forbes writing this, either. Please see the following (reputable) sources for where I found this. Here, here, and here (admittedly, this last one might be a little bias, so have a couple more - here and here -, just to prove my point).

to you, what are the main differences between managing and leading?

'Management,' Ati says, 'is about process, while leadership has to do with vision and strategy.' Simon Sinek, in one of his many videos on the topic, talks about what a manager is: they are someone who performed so well at their job that now they are responsible for others that do the job as well. They know how to do the job better than the person currently doing it, and therefore may get over-involved. Where a manager will check a task is being done correctly, a leader will ensure the person doing the task knows what they are doing. Leadership, to paraphrase what he says, is giving away all of the credit and taking all of the responsibility.

A leader teaches teams how to fish, while a manager ensures the fishing is done right.

It is not just the responsibilities of the leader that separates them from a manager; their approach is just as important. Both Destinee and Ati present the idea of servant leadership: Destinee says that 'managing is delegation,' and that she focuses on empowering her team. In helping them 'achieve their goals,' and to be the 'first line of defence', she aims to 'earn their trust'. Lisa agrees, adding that leading is 'creating the conditions under which your team can succeed.' Likewise, Ati states that the responsibilities of a leader include 'motivating and encouraging critical thinking.' The key difference being: 'a leader teaches teams how to fish, while a manager ensures the fishing is done right.'

What do you think the main reason is that there is a perception of women being "bad" leaders?

Rightfully so, Lisa begins her answer by saying: 'So look, bad leadership has no gender.' There is a trend, she says, of women who focus on 'executing, and operationalizing and caring for others' are told that they "aren't being strategic enough."

Reading back that question now with this in mind I realise it is, perhaps, phrased wrong. What I mean by it, of course, is: why is it so difficult for women to achieve leadership positions, and why are we still so scrutinized when we do?

In her Ted Talk Shawn Andrews, Ed.D., M.B.A. discusses some research she has done into the perceptions behind female vs male leaders. She separated the categories of words into positive, negative, and gendered perceptions. For men, the first category contained words such as 'smart, powerful, confident'; for women, 'smart, honest, resourceful.' The second category, for men, 'ruthless, egotistical, narcisstic, insincere'; for women, 'bossy', 'calculating,' 'aggressive,' 'bitch.' That in itself warrants a discussion, but it is the gendered perceptions, however, that are the most interesting to me. For men; 'competitive', 'dominant', and 'stoic.' For women; 'sexy,' 'maternal', 'vulnerable.' She points out that the qualities? of female leaders focus more on female than leader.

This rings true with the answers I was given when this question was asked: Ati begun by saying: 'not sure,' which contrasts serendipitously with the way Destinee says, 'honestly, It's confidence.' Importantly, she added: 'its something we all struggle with.' There is pressure on male leaders to be successful, and confident, and there is a lot to be said for toxic masculinity for not letting men be vulnerable - and especially so in the workplace. Female leaders, on the other hand, are encouraged to be supportive and empathetic.

it is no wonder we have confidence issues. We've been put in a no-win situation

The ways these roles fall on us is not some fluke; there are years - even centuries - of stereotypes behind them. Both Lisa and Ati point out that there is a 'perception that women are more "emotional".' But there is a difference in emotional regulation and emotional response, and as Ati points out, being more in touch with your emotions actually means 'more awareness and ability to regulate one's emotions.'

I don't know if women are still perceived as "bad" leaders the same ways we were ten, twenty, thirty years ago; but tolerance levels for female mistakes as a leader are much lower than they are for male mistakes.

As Destinee points out, women 'have had to walk a fine line of being confident while not being too bossy for too long. It is no wonder we have confidence issues. We've been put in a no-win situation.'

How many female managers/leaders have you had compared to how many male managers? Have you noticed any key differences between them?

Last month, Thea commented that there is a generation of women in tech who only had male role models. The phrase 'have the confidence of a mediocre white man' is one that is joked about, but there rings some truth in it; when all you see are people that look like you being successful, it is easy to believe that you, too, can be successful. When all you see are people that don't look like you being successful, it is harder to believe that you can reach the same level. The 'Glass Ceiling' is a concept for a reason.

Destinee has had an even split of male and female managers. While she has had 'amazing' male and female leaders, she said that her female leaders 'understood the obstacles that [she] was going to face and coached [her] through the process.'

when all you see are people that don't look like you being successful, it is harder to believe that you can reach the same level

Lisa, works in education. She attributes this as a reason that she has had 'primarily women bosses.'

Ati, who has a career spanning some of the best-known HealthTech companies out there, specializes in data science. 15-22% of data scientists are women: this does not even look into how many female data scientists are in leadership positions. Unsurprisingly, Ati has 'had only male managers.'

Have you experienced other leaders doubt your leadership abilities or question your decision making?

In a study conducted by KPMG , it was found that 75% of female executives across a variety of industries have experienced imposter syndrome. Perhaps this comes from the isolation of being at the top and being the only woman there; perhaps this comes from being the first woman to get there; perhaps this comes from being undermined (subtly, overtly, or something in between). Who knows?

Social psychologist Faye Crosby made a discovery 25 years ago that most women are unaware that they are personally 'victims of gender discrimination and deny it even when it is objectively true and they see that women in general experience it.' (It is worth pointing out, I think, that the article where I found this said that she 'stumbled' on it. Perhaps the fact that we credit women's discoveries to being an accident, even in an article about the barriers women face in their careers, has something to do with why we face imposter syndrome.)

This article, by the Harvard Business Review, says that we have moved away from the deliberation dismissal and exclusion of women in the workplace, and more towards "second-generation" forms of gender bias. This bias creates invisible barriers for women that arise from age-old stereotypes. Indeed, Ati discusses how she would share 'opinions and ideas based on [her] experience and expertise in a field or subject,' only to be dismissed. She goes on to say that 'time has shown [her] to be right, but the opportunity to course-correct was already lost.

Destinee agrees: 'I think that if you are a leader you have experienced this. The key is to deliver on your knowledge and experience.'

Have you experienced employees (male or female) ignore you/doubt you/question your decision making when they have listened to (male) colleagues?

Thankfully, all three said that this does not happen as often. While Ati commented that it tends to happen 'more often with leadership than employees', Lisa feels that she is unsure if it is 'gendered' when it does happen.

Destinee says that she has had to form 'good relationships with [her] male colleagues' so that they can hold the person accountable. Finding work-arounds is smart; but it still shouldn't have to happen.

A stereotype of being in a male-dominated industry is being interrupted in meetings; have you experienced something like this? What did it look like?

A study by Stanford analyzed 31 separate conversations, split evenly between male-female conversations (11), female-female conversations (10), and male-male conversations (10). In the two same-sex groups combined, seven interrupts were identified. In the male-female research groups, the researchers found 48 total interruptions - and 46 of them were instigated by a man. Destinee says, simply, 'of course.'

Lisa says that she has been 'fortunate at work' that she has not experienced the microaggressions many women face in the workplace. However, she then recalls an instance in which this very thing happened when she was giving a presentation to one of her boards. 'One of the board members kept cutting me off to ask questions.' She forgives his behavior; 'in fairness, he was more oblivious than a jerk.'

what this really meant was, 'you are too attractive; make yourself less visible.'

Another stereotype is how women dressed being censored because it is "distracting" to male colleagues. I believed this to be something that begun and died between the ages of 11 and 18, when teachers would tell female students off for wearing strappy tops or (worse!) leggings. I once had the audacity to wear both as a 14 year old, and was told off by a (female) teacher as it may be "distracting" to male teachers. When I asked her why a male teacher would be teaching in all girl's school if he was likely to get distracted by a 14 year old girl, I was told to get on with my work. Unfortunately, I am proven wrong when Ati shares her story with me.

'I have experienced something far worse,' she says. 'At a very male-heavy silicon valley start-up (in the whole ~50 person tech team, there were only 2 women; a mechanical engineer and me. The C suite were all white middle-aged men. Surprise!), I was asked by a NY born and raised VP for “more coverage” after an alleged complaint to HR about my “attire”.

He said (exact words), “Tops are too tight; shorts are too short”.?

I asked, “What do you want me to do about it?”

He then said (exact words), “More coverage”.

I certainly knew how to dress for work. This was not my first job, and nothing had changed about my wardrobe.?

What this really meant was, “You are too attractive; make yourself less visible.”'

Did you defend yourself/push back? If you did, how did you do this? How did people react when you did?

According to the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, an estimated 75% of individuals who experience harassment at work don't file a complaint. Forbes did research into why this is the case and found four main reasons:

1. HR works for management, and not the individual - and may report into the abuser
2. They believe reporting is sure to prevent them achieving their career goals
3. The problem is rooted in company culture
4. HR is the problem (i.e. through telling people they are overreacting to situations, they ensure future harassment is not reported)

Ati did push back. She asked him what she should change and he repeated: 'more coverage.' Eventually, she told him: "I cannot do that; I will not do that. I think I know how to dress for work, and I am not changing my wardrobe."

She describes how she told him that, during her undergrad in Iran, they had: "'Guardians of Islam" at the entrances to the university. They did exactly this; they looked at us, and told us, "Miss, your shirt is too short; you’re showing too much hair; etc”. I have not traveled thousands of miles away from home to be told exactly that.”'

she was told, as a grown adult in a professional environment... that she was distracting her (mostly male) colleagues

She was told, as a grown adult in a professional environment (by HR!), in the same way I was as a 14 year old girl, that she was distracting for her (mostly male) colleagues: 'the company is growing and it is hard for some people to keep their eye on the ball.' At least she got an apology: 'this did not make anything better for me. Who was looking at my arms and legs at work?? And how was this my problem??'

Somehow, it gets worse: HR admitted that they did not have a dress code, and that: 'if we did, you would not be violating it.' She ended up leaving the company shortly afterwards. She shares, 'I was uneasy and self-conscious because I felt objectified and I did not even know by whom.' She describes the event as 'traumatizing and triggering.'

Likewise, when facing an interruption, Destinee says that the key is to 'hold your ground,' and to 'remain calm.' She has had conversations with people who frequently interrupt, and with her bosses and the leadership team if it persists. It is important to remember that 'you can do that while being professional.'

Would you now? What would you say?

Destinee suggests talking to the 'person who interrupts you first before going to other people.' Similarly, Lisa recommends 'calmly stating "please let me finish my thought and I'd be happy to respond".'

Likewise, Ati says that she would not change how she reacted. However, she would 'push for HR telling the complainers what they needed to hear,' as well as taking 'proper legal action to make a change in the culture.' She says she 'did not take action at the time because she wanted to leave and forget about the incident as quickly as possible.'

For more information on what you should do if you are harassed at work, please see here:

• USA; EEOC, Business News Daily
• UK; Citizens Advice

Do you feel as though you have had to change things about yourself to "fit in" with colleagues/peers/subordinates?

Fun fact: CEOS who regularly play golf are paid 17% more on average than those who do not.

Another fun fact: 90% of fortune 500 CEOs play golf.

A third (and final) fun fact: 10% of fortune 500 CEOs are women.

I'm not saying it's all connected, but I'm also not not saying that, either.

A LinkedIn article (admittedly, from 2014), advises women to 'be able to talk sports' in order to get ahead in their careers. Apparently, 'it creates an impression of power to be able to talk [about sports].'

My conversation with Lisa revolved a lot around the "authentic CEO", and how women have felt they have to change parts of themselves to do well in industry. Lisa says that at work she is 'focused and analytical' which can give the impression that she is 'cold', something which is not 'stereotypical female-coded behavior.' She has learnt to, as she puts it, 'narrate [her] quirks', such as telling people "I'm processing" so she does not appear stoic or indifferent when listening.

In a sales role, of course it makes sense to learn about certain things to discuss them with a client; whether it is their company's mission, or their top ten restaurants in NYC, or their football team. But to appease colleagues... less so.

women have felt they have to change parts of themselves to do well in industry

Destinee admits that while she already loved the F1 and football (we did spend some time talking about the Super Bowl, and she did not judge me at all for being interested in it because of Taylor Swift) she learnt a lot about 'whiskey, alcohol and sneakers,' but has flat-out refused to 'learn basketball of golf.' She says: 'I just can't.'

Ati, on the other hand, has 'not changed [herself]'. But, she says, she has 'felt how it would impact work relationships if [she] had.'

And while, yes, maybe it would help for women to learn about football, or golf, or whatever else to fit in with colleagues, why should we?

What advice would you give to other female managers/leaders?

Ati:? Do not be doubtful of yourselves. Stay confident, direct, and assertive. Do not apologize when you have not done anything wrong. Know your rights and ask for them.

Do not apologize when you have not done anything wrong.

Destinee: Just be yourself. Seriously. I know its hard. But whenever I've had success it was because I stopped trying to imitate someone else and just followed my gut.

Lisa: Build your internal board of directors- those folks who believe in you and love you, and so will call you in while also lifting you up. You need a safe space to think through issues, be messy and get feedback.?

What is the best piece of advice you have received in your career?

Destinee: From a woman leader: "If you are the only woman in the meeting, do NOT volunteer to take notes. Make them sit in the uncomfortable silence until they find someone else. The moment you make yourself the note taker is the moment they won't take you seriously."*

The moment you make yourself the note taker is the moment they won't take you seriously

Lisa: Be wherever?you are. I was going through an incredibly hard time- my mother had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and I had had to pick up more work due to a sudden leadership change. My boss at the time shared this, meaning, wherever you are is where you should focus, rather than constantly worrying about what else I needed to do. In some ways, I found myself the most effective at my work during this time because it forced me to be fully present with whoever I was with, which meant I was able to be more supportive of whoever I was with.

Ati: It is never too late to course correct if you are on the wrong path. Do not make the mistake of staying too long in a toxic environment or where you feel you do not belong because you think you have already invested too much.?

*this is something that is particularly interesting to me. There is a concept of doing the 'office housework' - i.e. Things that are vital to the business running smoothly but won't be judged on a performance review. For more of a deep dive on how this often falls on women, look here!

What is the problem you are most passionate about solving?

Lisa: Anything regarding equity?of access. It is what drew me to K-12 education?to begin with, first as a teacher then a principal. Providing equitable access to quality education is a civil right. My move into talent was for similar reasons- organizations should not make success or promotions a mystery or a "guess what's in my head" situation. By having clear and inclusive criteria for success, workplaces can be more equitable. I've increasingly worked with small startups and usually with underestimated founders, as the ecosystem has bias and systemic?barriers

Ati: Equal access to resources and improving wellbeing for everyone around the globe.?

I just want other women to know that it is ok to be you... You don't have to pigeon hole yourself.

Destinee: I just want other women to know that it is ok to be you. You don't have to force yourself to be someone you are not to be taken seriously. You can like Taylor Swift and Football. You can like Barbie and Formula 1. You don't have to pigeon hole yourself.?

?

sources & further reading ?

I read a lot around "women in tech" while researching for this. These women - and the many more that I spoke to - all have experiences with things that I had previously only looked at as a statistic. While the articles, podcasts and books below share the statistics, I think it is the individual stories that make up each statistic that are more valuable.

These are in addition to the articles and links embedded into the text of the article.

Unrealized Potential: The High Cost of Gender Inequality in Earnings

McKinsey Report: Gender Equality could add $12 trillion to global GDP by 2025

Difference between Managing and Leading - Simon Sinek

Gender Imbalance in Data Science

KPMG: Imposter Syndrome

Rising Women: The Unseen Barriers (Harvard Business Review)

Forbes: Workplace Harrasment and Why Women Don't Speak Up

NY Times: The Universal Phenomenon of Men Interrupting Women

The Conversation: Being an authentic CEO is a job in itself.