Co-Creating an Interview

by Drew Longbottom and Frank Newman

This article is an interview between Drew Longbottom and Frank Newman . Drew is a Dharrawal and Yuin man and runs cultural education, leadership programs and is involved in language reconstruction. Frank is a Sydney based socially-engaged theatre director working for the SSE - Sydney School of Entrepreneurship an NFP social enterprise that delivers entrepreneurial programs around NSW with underserved communities.

Earlier this year Frank and Drew co facilitated a workshop with First Nations Teenagers in Nowra, about developing social enterprise and business concepts based on issues in their community. The workshop was funded by the NSW Department of Primary Industries and Regional Development and took place at the Wollongong University Shoalhaven Campus. After the workshop, the pair started talking not only about what they had done, but how they had approached it. This led to a series of co-written LinkedIn posts to share the conversation, framed around the idea of co creating. Specifically, what is it and how to do it well, particularly between Indigenous and non indigenous facilitators and educators.

FN: Tell me more about your work with ethnographers and language re-construction?

DL: Our language was thought to be extinct. Ethnographers deconstructed and reconstructed it. A lot of this work is good work, but there were differences in pronunciation. My cousins and I started to learn phonetics and linguistics to re build what we thought the actual sounds and words were. Specialists were astounded with our knowledge when we talked to them. They thought they knew everything about the south coast language, but we brought new ways of understanding and new words from our elders.

FN: Where does co-creation sit in that context?

DL: I am a sole trader. I work alongside other local Indigenous and non indigenous companies. Like my cousin and Gadhungal Marring. We do cultural facilitation, language camps and made short films. I do contract work for other non indigenous companies. I deliver cultural content. Connection to country and leadership programs about leadership in culture. I talk about how that can be translated into today’s society. How we carry ourselves morally. I work into what they need and deliver programs they want.

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FN: What does Co Creating mean to you?

DL: Its building relationship between services business and providers of education. Its about forming partnerships. Through partnerships I am in different projects, like co facilitating with Red Room Poetry and another community organisation. Co Creating is about people coming together to construct ideas and have understanding. Getting different ideas from all sides and then compromising to make something new.

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FN: Is there a difference between co-creating with non Aboriginal partners? The way you approach it?

DL: All Aboriginal people have a story to tell. You don’t need to explain that to other indigenous people. They always have a story to tell, its in their identity. Non Aboriginal people are in a learning process, to understand what their connection is to country. They are learning their story. There are more people willing to learn these days.

With Aboriginal people you always have to start with culture. With non aboriginal people, I feel out the relationship to see if its normal and what they or I need. I always come from my perspective and give them a sense of understanding. I provide knowledge and try to explain things. What breaks down any barrier is the conversation. It’s the ability to articulate what you know, so that it creates more questions and a willingness to know more.

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FN: How do non Aboriginal orgs co-create with First Nations organisations and individuals? What best practice in your view?

DL: It has to be genuine. It has to be genuine about why and what that program will be. There are a lot of people that do it to tick a box. You have to have a genuine want to be immersed in it…. And for us to give our best, it has to be about trust.

Best practice would be about having a cultural immersion experience and let it grow from that. To start a new relationship, I’ll often offer a free workshop to start the relationship. I check them out and they get the immersion, the taste, the touch, the smell outside of the institutional setting. That’s what our culture is all about. Human connection with nature.

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FN: You and I had to find a way to bring our content together. I was responsible for delivering entrepreneurial education using arts-based approaches to facilitation. You were supporting and leading cultural knowledge and history that supported and deepened the overall content. How would you do what we did, but better?

DL: Next time I would be more proactive prior. I would find the time to really work through what I could bring. We worked well together and bounced off each other well. It would work better if there was time set aside to bring our ideas together and do more than just support each other. We did really well, but more time would mean we could find new connections. Just more time.

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FN: Agreed. We found a great connection when you talked about the interrelationship of all living things and how the ecosystem works. We then got to talk about entrepreneurial ecosystems and how they help grow local business. If we’d had more time to chat and explore connections this could have been closer to what co creating could be. But I reckon we did a good job and the students said so in the evaluations!