Charlie Ayers made millions cooking for Google's earliest employees

2019 is a big year for tech IPOs. One millionaire cook reflects on how life changed once his stocks vested.

They myth of Silicon Valley is that anyone can land at a tech startup early and strike it rich. But let’s face it: this almost never happens. This episode, as a spate of tech companies prepare to go public,

we bring you a conversation with Google’s first chef. Charlie Ayers won a cook-off to become employee #53 at the company. He reflects on the search engine’s quirky founders, how his time at Google shaped his next career move, and what it all means for him now, more than a decade after he left.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE HERE

JESSI HEMPEL: From the editorial team at LinkedIn, I’m Jessi Hempel. And this...is Hello Monday-- a show where I investigate how we’re changing the nature of work, and how that work is changing us.

The myth of Silicon Valley is that you might just land early at a startup and strike it rich when that company goes public. Really rich.

[NEWS CLIP 15-30] Shares of Google, the company that makes the world’s most popular search engine, went on sale to great fanfare today. The offering was the biggest for an internet technology company in four years and made its founders billionaires.

But let’s face it, this almost never happens. Instead, people work their tails off for tiny salaries hoping their stock options turn into the kind of money that helps with the down payment on a house. And, most startups fail. Even when they succeed, most people don’t arrive early enough to see a huge payout. 

But that myth I was talking about? It exists because for a tiny group of people, luck wins.

This spring, as many of tech’s most promising startups like Uber and Lyft and Pinterest and Slack are finally going public, people will start to get payouts. But very few people will end up as lucky as Charlie Ayers.

Charlie was Google’s first chef, and employee #53 at the company. Shortly after he left in 2006, his stock options were worth $40 million.

Charlie will tell you that he was lucky, but he was also smart. Smart enough to best his competition and get the job in the first place. Smart enough to purchase his options. Smart enough to use his reputation as “The Google Chef” to launch businesses of his own.

But his story isn’t just about tech and food. It’s also about how Silicon Valley changed over the two decades since he took the job. Tech made Charlie a multi-millionaire overnight – and it also put him out of business.

Here’s Charlie.

***

JESSI: So tell me how you got your job at Google.

CHARLIE AYERS: Well initially I tried out for it, but prior to trying out, I was cooking privately for a family here in the Silicon Valley and went everywhere they went. And it wasn't a great life. It sounds glamorous, but it's not. The girl I was dating at the time worked with a gentleman whose wife worked in PR at Google. And she would, she was like, my office mate says that they need a chef at this company called Google. I'm like, Google, what's that. She's like, it's a search engine. This was like 1998. I'm like, what's a search engine? She's like, you know, like Lycos or Yahoo. So I sent a resume, no response, and from my inside connection and said send it to this person and send them like a care package of what you do. So I did that on a weekly basis for a while. No response, no response. So I was sending it to the wrong person and they were getting all kinds of scones and preserves and all things I'm making. And they were like, wow, this is awesome. So I found the right person to contact and engage with and they're like, we're just ending our round of tryouts. Would you like to come in? Certainly. There was only 18 people in the company at that time. Maybe 20, 24, but it was jam packed, and it looked like they were doing everything and anything else other than work. There were erector sets and all kinds of children's toys everywhere. And my initial meeting with Larry Page was, and I didn't, I had never met him before, so I didn't know when this guy came bouncing out of the elevator with this ball. This like a ball that you'd ride on, like a child. Bouncing out right past me. Like hm. Later I find out that was Larry Page. So I had very light interview. Met Sergei and you know, he, he told me that, you know, we need a chef to grow with this company and I didn't realize they had all those growth plans and I was like most of the restaurants here in this industry, in downtown Palo Alto, I've opened over the years. You don't need to go anywhere. Oh no, we're going to be somewhere far away where the employees can't just leave to go to lunch. So we need to shut, they'll grow with our culture. Okay. Left that interview. I was like, I'm not getting that job. These guys are crazy. They called me in for the cook tryout.

JH: What was the cook try out, like where did it happen?

CA: So they'd called me weeks later because they were very slow about moving and they're like, we have new headquarters. We're in Mountain View and we have a kitchen and you can come here and cook and we're going to need you to cook for around 50 people. Okay, fine. No problem. So I went out to dinner with that gal and her husband and the girlfriend at the time and juiced her for all the information of how do you guys eat what you eat and all that. And we eat California cuisine, we love sushi. We love Indian food, we eat a lot of vegetarian, we go to Whole foods a lot. We get all this delivered. And so I'm like, great. I had information that none of these other chefs did. So I built a menu built on the information that they'd given me. So I made it very eclectic menu. They had all of these things that they eat.

JH: Do you remember anything that was on the menu?

CA: Oh yeah.

JH: Okay, come on.

CA: We had a, a Sri Lankan chicken curry with roasted pumpkin and brown rice. I had a five spice tofu and cashew Lettuce Cup. And chocolate almond cake. Everyone that came through and ate, each person was like, this is exactly the food we eat. We love this type of, how did you know?

JH: So you served that meal, and then how long after that did you get the call, and did you know at that point, wow, this is, this is a job I want.

CA: I still didn’t know what it was. It took Google almost eight weeks to get back to me, so I had to go back and work for this family. And it was, it was like, come on, where's, where's the phone call? Where's the phone call, every night going home, checking the answering machine, has there been a phone call? And finally they got ahold of me and they're like, they called in on a Thursday and they're like, we want you to start this Monday.

JH: So you get the job, you start cooking. What was it like to work there while you worked there?

CA: I felt like Homer Simpson, working with all these hugely intelligent people and in the, in the beginning there was a bunch of cubicles anywhere, it was doors and, and saw horses, all, everyone in one room.

And I'm working next to financial analysts and guys that you know have invented the Internet and I'm like, can I go work in a corner where you're not around? And they're like, we have an office for you downstairs. I'm like, Oh, let's go there. So I completely, I isolated myself from the company and just started digging into creating something that they hadn't had before and I had to talk with Larry and Sergei and find out what they really want and they're like, we want you to be happy and if you're happy we'll be happy, do whatever you want.

JH: Yeah. So you were there five years, right. So in your mind, were they five very different years, was it like five chapters?

CA: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

JH: So give us a, give us a couple of fun stories from that time.

CA: In the very beginning they were so geeky. I mean, like the first ski trip I went with him there was about, you know, 50 something of us that went up in a couple of vans and I made the mistake of going to Larry and Sergei's party one night and they were like, oh, we're having a party at our suite later tonight. You should come down. And I went up from the bar from, with a couple engineers and they're like, be careful, these guys rage. I opened the door and they're sitting down playing like Trivial Pursuit, drinking soda and eating popcorn. And I'd already had a couple of cocktails. I'm like, you can't back out now. You have to sit down and hang out with them.

JH: To be fair, I would not want to play Trivial Pursuit with either of them.

CA: Oh, they had like, they had their brain trust there in that room. All their inner sanctum of, of trusted people there. And it was, I was like, you got to hang for at least 45 minutes with these people and then leave. And I left and I heard like a roar when the door close and later I found out, they're like, oh my God, we're not cool enough to hang out with him. He had to leave us.

JH: Well, so tell me about your decision. Like when did you decide that it was time for you to move on?

CA: You know, The company had just gone public and we were doing about 10,000 meals a day and you know, I have an opportunity to do something else now and I've always wanted to do my own thing. Why not take this opportunity that, and like I had somewhat of a reputation and name growing now. I was like, I might as well work with that to do my own thing. I wasn’t exactly sure on how I was going to get to that, at that place.

JH: Yeah. Were you pretty burnt out by then? I mean, you must have been working hard for a long time.

CA: My health had diminished hugely. I had gained tons of weight and I was driving around on a golf cart everywhere. And it was just, if you look at pictures from way back then until now and you're like, wow. So after I recovered, like three weeks later, I told my now ex-wife, but at the time it was like, I want to go back and she's like, it's done. It's over with. That train has left the station. You got to figure out your own thing now.

JH: I want to know how you thought about the options part of the role at that point. Like technically, you're leaving and I’m imagining that when you became a chef earlier in your career, you didn't think, oh I'm probably going to become a millionaire.

CA: That was, you know, I just wanted to be happy. One of the financial analysts that I sat next to in the early days is, his name was John Motley. And he's like, have you bought your options? Have you gotten into that yet? I'm like, no. He's like, listen, this is a company is going to be big. They're going to blow up like no other. There's never been anyone like this. I highly advise you, scrape up that money and get it together and at the time it was like 2 cents a share. Um, so I asked my dad, I'm like, pop, I need to borrow 14 grand. He's like, why? I'm like, these people I'm working for, they need it for, and he's like, it's a scam, don't you dare.

JH: I mean, but it sounds like it on the face.

CA: Yeah. And I'm like, Dad, you don't realize that it's people I'm working with. They're like some of the most brilliant minds there are. He's like, all right, I love you and I'm going to help you. And if it works out, better for everyone, if it doesn't, you've learned a lesson and you owe me.

JESSI: Coming up after the break, Charlie tells us what happened when he left Google.

Today’s show is brought to you by Calm. Stress hits people in different ways, for me it seems to always come in the middle of the night. I wake up at 2, 3 in the morning, and just can’t go back to sleep. My head starts spinning. I finally take my pillow and retire to the couch, hoping for sleep. And lately, I’ve become really fond of an app, Calm, maybe you’ve heard of it. It’s the #1 app to help you reduce your anxiety and stress and help you sleep better. More than 40 million people around the world have downloaded it. There’s guided meditations, including a brand new one every day, and also sleep stories – kind of like bedtime stories for adults. You can head to magical lavender fields in the south of France with Stephen Fry, or explore moonlit jungles with Leona Lewis. I like to keep it simple. I like the sound of a “Babbling Brook.” Ten minutes of that and I’m closer to sleep. Right now, Hello Monday listeners get 25% off a Calm Premium subscription at Calm.com/HelloMonday. And get unlimited access to ALL of Calm’s content today at Calm.com/Hello Monday.

Today’s show is brought to you by Capterra. I’m a review person. This summer I’m taking my family to Europe, and I read 35 reviews before I chose my hotel. When I choose a restaurant? I read the reviews. Pick out a new stroller for my son? Again, reviews. So it just makes sense that I’d turn to reviews when picking out software for a business. That’s why I want to tell you about Capterra. It’s an efficient way to get educated -- fast -- about what will help you the most. You can read thousands of real software reviews and find the right software for your business at Capterra [dot] com slash HELLOMONDAY. Visit Capterra dot com slash HELLOMONDAY for free, today, to find the tools to make an informed software decision for your business. Capterra dot com slash HELLOMONDAY. Capterra: software selection simplified.

JESSI: OK, I’m back with more from Charlie Ayers. But first, let me remind you why we are talking to Charlie: This spring, a spate of private tech companies are finally going public. 

Most of the people who work at these companies won’t walk away with the chunk of change that Charlie did, but IPOs will still change their prospects. Our reporter Caroline Fairchild has been researching this.

Hi Caroline.

CAROLINE: Hey Jessi. After years of speculation, several tech companies like Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Pinterest and Slack – they’re going public. Taken together, those companies are worth BILLIONS of dollars, with a B. The New York Times recently came out with a report that the potential of this much money hitting the public market, and employees’ stock options vesting as a result, could create thousands of new millionaires out the employees at these companies.

JESSI: So what does LinkedIn tell us about this?

CAROLINE: A lot of people have applied to work at these companies — and that’s probably partly because of this potential upside in earnings. But since the average time people stick around is only about two years, very few will be in the position to “strike it rich” like Charlie.

JESSI: Right, but there are people who have stuck around for a long time. What do we know about them?

CAROLINE: Well we know that most of these employees are in the Bay Area and they are going to have a huge impact on the local economy. The Bay Area already has a high cost of living — the median-priced home in San Francisco sells for $1.6 million. The more capital flooding this market will only make this situation worse.

JESSI: Yes and it’s not just houses. Think of all the things that will be more expensive.

CAROLINE: Houses, parties, we read in the New York Times that ice luges will be more expensive. It’s going to hit every part of the local economy.

JESSI: So what are people saying about this on LinkedIn?

CAROLINE: We’re seeing tons of debate on this topic on LinkedIn with hundreds of members weighing in. Many think that the impact of these IPOs on the Bay Area is overblown. The founder of a startup out of Irvine, California said that he was doubtful that thousands of new millionaires will be made off of this next round of IPOs because relatively few have been at these companies long enough to have those kind of stock options.

JESSI: Thanks Caroline. Now back to Charlie. He left Google in 2006, two years after it went public.

JH: Okay, so when you got to the point where you left and you left with these options, you left Google post Ipo. So by then Google was a big deal and people knew it was a big deal. Um, what, what was your life like? Did your, did your friends treat you differently, was it – Like something, was it like you've been struck by lightning?

CA: Yes, it was. It was whirlwind. Went public? I got married up, published a cookbook, opened the restaurant all within like four years. Um, and my friends treated me the same cause they knew I was the same person. Um, the people that really didn't know me treated me differently. Um, I didn't have like a line of cousins knocking on the door. Like, Hey, I need help. Or, you know, I only had one person that asked to borrow money and was 1000 bucks and it was for some school and he paid me back. So I was fortunate enough that I didn't have what you hear about, you know, and we bought a home in a very unassuming neighborhood and did nothing to the exterior but blew it up on the inside. So there was no driving by and like, oh that's a house to rob. It just looked like a regular Brady Bunch house in a regular Brady Bunch of neighborhood and, and we intentionally did that because I didn't want my ex wife's son becoming this little monster. I wanted it to be real and be able to – 

JH: And by little monster, I assume you mean you didn't want wealth to shape who he became.

CA: Mhm. I mean, I watched a lot of people just turn into people that they weren't ever before it Google.

JH: Yeah, that's right. Because you went through this along with everybody else –

CA: I watched people divorce their wives and husbands, and people who had loved and supported each other, all kinds of changing their looks and everything. And I was like, wow, none of you people were happy.

And that's so weird, you think money's going to change all that for you. And it did. And I've watched a lot of people also tumble and fall since then. I mean, I've watched the ups and down, you know, for 15 years. You can see that happen. I've watched, you know, there was some people where it hasn't phased them at all and they've grown their wealth even more. And other people that were just happy to get away from it and not even let people know what they had so they could lead a regular life. I mean, for a long time. And I couldn't, you know, they was like, if I went into the supermarket, Whole Foods in Palo Alto, people would look at my basket, what do I have?

JH: Really?

CA: Oh, I was constantly changing my look so I couldn't, cause I was always getting solicited on the streets of wherever I went.

JH: Did you feel recognizable because you were a person that everybody, at least everybody who worked in Google would have known you as the chef –

CA: After that, just the PR group. I was using all the notoriety it was getting after that and I started doing stuff from the Food Network and PR work company I was working with was doing their, their job. And they were, they were getting me out there.

JH: Would you have been able to do that without the Google bump?

CA: No, I mean I knew what I was doing, but you know, there's thousands of great chefs out there better than myself that, you know, I got lucky. Honestly, I was in the right place at the right time. I got lucky.

JH: When you think back about it because it is true that you got lucky. It is also true that you're incredibly talented chef.

CA: Thank you.

JH: Um, it's true that there aren't a ton of jobs in Silicon Valley startups for chefs. There's maybe one, maybe half dozen most when they're large. So how do you think back about how Google happened to you?

CA: You know, it was just honestly it was, um, they were ready to do something that no one else had done and I was ready to try it out. I've always been a risk taker, an uncalculated risk-taker as my father would say, so throwing the, rolling the dice and close my eyes and hope it works out for the best. And um, they didn't know what they were doing. They were advised not to by human resources and legal, like our own chef. Are you crazy? The liabilities of that.

But Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison advised Larry and Sergei both, you want to set yourself apart, have your own culinary programs because Apple and Oracle both had their own thing and they saw the value of that.

JH: Right, are there any other big changes you make to your lifestyle when you leave Google?

CA: Took vacations that I never had before. You know, spend time in Japan, spent almost a month there, went to a couple of different countries in, in Europe and just took care of myself and enjoyed myself, really. Had an opportunity to eat a lot of different foods that I hadn't had before and meet chefs I hadn't met before because I started getting invited to these different food festivals and working alongside like people that I admired and I'm like, can I have your autograph? I've always wanted to, you know, and they were equally as like, this is the Google chef. I want to meet this guy that's made of gold. And I'm like, dude, it's not like, and then they'd see how hard I would work in there. Like he's, and he's a regular humble guy that's just like, you know, they appreciated that, you know, cause at the end of the day, you know, everyone that's in this industry, my industry, even Thomas Keller, you know, he puts on his whites and he'll get, he'll get behind the dish machine and help if he needs to. And that's the thing about this industry. It's service and you can't be above that and it can't be an ego driven thing where like you're going to eat this food cause I'm so and so.

JESSI: Coming up after the break, Charlie tells us about what happened to the restaurant he started.

Today’s show is brought to you by Ritual. We all want to do the right thing to keep our bodies healthy in the long run. But even if we try really hard to eat right, we’re still most likely not getting all of the essential nutrients we need. Enter: Ritual, the obsessively-researched vitamin for women. No shady additives or ingredients that can do more harm to your body than good. Two easy-to-take capsules provide nine nutrients you need to support a strong foundation for your health. A subscription is easy to start. It’s only a dollar a day to have all the essential nutrients your body needs, delivered every month— no strings attached. Better health doesn’t happen overnight, and right now Ritual is offering listeners 10% off during your first three months. Help fill the gaps in your diet with Essential for Women—a small step that helps support a healthy foundation for your body. Visit ritual.com/HELLOMONDAY to start your Ritual today. That’s ritual.com/HELLOMONDAY.

JESSI: Alright, back to my conversation with Charlie Ayers.

JH: So what happens to your career? Good and bad.

CA: So right after I left, while I was doing the cookbook thing, Facebook hired me to do their food program. So I advised them, gave Mark Zuckerberg the secret sauce recipe and this is what you want to do, if you want to have the same thing. And then I got work with Linkedin when they were very small, still in Palo Alto and there was like 200 people set up their micro kitchens. I worked with Palantir and Dropbox and Ning and Zaza and all that. And like, so I had my hands in all these companies that were, some of them were people that had money at Google and they're like, you did such a great job with these guys. We want you to help with these little companies that we have. So I was getting. So I built a little bitty company and I was advising tech companies on, on how to, you know, be like Google.

JH: Right. Did the wealth that you generated during your time at Google give you a cushion that allowed you to take different and larger risks later on?

CA: Yes, it did. And things that I believed in, projects I believed in and charities that I wanted to work with and support. Um, the way I treated my employees. I, one of the things I realized is that your employees are your most valuable asset. And I, I really tried to treat the employees have worked for me at the restaurant better than normal restaurants too.

JH: So when did you start your restaurant?

CA: We opened up on inauguration day, January 21st, 2009. 

JH: Well tell us what it was called.

CA: Califia and California is named after the goddess of California. And it was my homage to the Latin Asian culture here in California that basically built what we have today. Had we not had the Chinese come here and built the railroads, we wouldn't have any of anything that we have here. You know, we basically stole the land from Mexico. Having to be my two my favorite types of food, Latin and Asian foods. I already cooked healthy foods. I made a Latin Asian, California cuisine based menu. Half of it was vegetarian and my whole thing was using the local produce. And so most all of our ingredients came from California except for, you know, chocolate and a couple of things you have to import.

JH: Um, and that sounds like a winning recipe for the California that I've come come up in. Um, what happened at the restaurant? How'd it go?

CA: We closed last year in August. 14 months shy of our 10 year anniversary. Having as much notoriety as I had over the years. Lot of business came down from San Francisco. They were like, we want a piece of this action. This guy's getting, you know, like one year I was in the food section 13 times. They only have it once a month, you know, so that's how much attention we were getting, that's how much we were blowing it up. All the competition that moved in around the area, corporate chains. Multiple occasions that equated to them being able to buy commodities at a lower price than I could to the point where they're like, we'll put you out of business because by undercutting and underselling you the same ingredients, but we can get a cheaper, and we'll pass it on to our customers. And as many as black Amex cards drop on the tables in Palo Alto and Lamborghinis and Porsches pulling up, they're people who are still mindful of how they spend their money, especially if they don't cook and they're going out to eat multiple times a day. So it just got to the point where, you know, the lawyer said to me, if you don't close it down, I will cause you can't go on like this anymore. It will be so bad for you. And I, I had to do that.

It was one of the, one of the hardest things to do. I, oh, I cried harder than when my mom died. But it was bittersweet.

JH: Yeah. You know, when I was asking around to try to find you because I wanted to talk to you, I ended up talking to just a couple of people I know in the Valley who are like, Oh yeah, Charlie. I haven't seen him in awhile cause I'd always go hang out with him in his restaurant.

CA: Yeah. It got really slow last year and it was just like, couldn't take it anymore. Business was not coming in. I was in prime real estate in downtown Palo Alto town and country, so I was a restaurant that catered. I wasn't a catering company, so my costs were always greater, everything. And I had to pass on to customers if I was going to stay in business and people are like, I love your food, but you know, I can get it for $5 cheaper from these guys to come in and feed my a hundred and something employees.

JH: Was it a lot of the digital startups?

CA: Yup. Lot a lot of tech companies who are just like, yeah, we get it for this. And I'm like, I can't do that. You know?

JH: And in some ways that's interesting because it, it's as though tech made you and then tech broke you.

CA: Yup. Professionally, I had gone to one of the town hall meetings in Palo Alto because a lot of the local merchants were trying to get the same ordinance passed that mountain view did, but about tech companies feeding their employees. And I went up and complained about it and some wise ass restaurant where it's like, oh, isn't that funny? The guy that started the problems getting burned by it now, I was like, fuck you dude. You know, I was just like, don't, don't, don't be that way. I'm like, I have a business just like you do.

JH: Yeah. Well you're still a young man sitting here, you know, I'm catching up with you at this point in your career, the intermediate phase. What, what's next for you?

CA: I've been helping a vegan shrimp company. They make shrimp from algae, seaweed and Kelp and other plant life materials and it's amazing. So it's something I've been doing for awhile, for about last year working with them, I started working with them while I still had Califia open. I used that as a place where they could bring their product and investors and it was new, something new that no one was doing before because I had done a little work with Impossible Foods and I got into that and I was like, this is cool. This is, this is the future. We can't continue to rely on cattle and poultry and pork and all these things that live in the ocean. So we can continue to sustain ourselves because we're not going to have anything left. We need to start looking at plant life now to recreate that whole, you know, sustainability of, of, of, of food chain or else we're going to break it. you know, like I had people bring me petri dish chicken and fish from Stanford and I was open to try and they're like, would you serve that at your restaurant? I said, eventually if I had to, I would be totally open to it. You know, if we as human beings are going to survive and live on this planet, we need to figure it out cause we're breaking it and it's a in every way imaginable, you know?

JH: Well, I, for one glad that that is the challenge that you are working on now.

CA: Yeah. I've always, I've always been into the environment and you know, if we're, if we're, if we treat the planet the right way, it's going to take care of us and, and you treat your body the right way and you eat properly. That's your medicine, you know? Yeah. 

JH: Thank you. This was so fun.

CA: Thank you for having me.

***

JESSI: Next week on the show: Two-time Olympic gold medalist Abby Wambach made a name for herself playing soccer. She captained the Women’s World Cup team that won in 2015 before she retired.

ABBY WAMBACH: My biggest fear was that soccer is what made me special, right? And it gave me a sense of identity, gave me a confidence, gave me a swagger. And then when you separate yourself from that, I was really worried that I would then be come nonexistent.

In fact, it was just the opposite. Today, Abby’s legacy is more likely to be defined by inspiring women to take care of each other like the women on her soccer team. You’d think that would be a simple message.

It is not.

Do you have a female mentor who helped you? Call us at 415-275-1327 and tell us about her. That’s 415-275-1327.

If you enjoyed listening, subscribe, and rate us on iTunes – it helps new listeners find the show.

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show was produced by Laura Sim and Brad Davis, with reporting by Caroline Fairchild. The show was mixed by Joe DiGiorgi. Florencia Iriondo is Head of Editorial Video. Dave Pond is our Technical Director. A shout out to Melissa Reni, Gaia Filicori, Derrick Chung, and Page Williams for spreading the good cheer.

Music was by Podington Bear and Pachyderm. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn. I’m Jessi Hempel, thanks for listening.

[CODA]

CA: We had tie dye parties and stuff and they put me in charge of all the music there. So we had live music coming through Google all the time and I was mostly bringing all the bands that I knew. Finally they were like, do you know any non jam band music that could possibly play here? And I'm like, sure that's, that's not a problem. So they embraced it and they were, they were in, into the whole disruption thing, like the grateful dead were.

JH: So you are also the DJ for Google?

CA: Yup.

JH: Well there you go.