Charity chat

Emma Rose, Head of Charity at Good Thyngs, interviewed Jason Suckley, CEO of Make-A-Wish, about his experience, the effects of the pandemic, and thoughts on digital fundraising.?

Q: During and since COVID-19, what changes have you had to make as a charity and the way that you work??

When COVID hit in March 2020, we had 2000 children waiting for a Wish.?

We immediately stopped taking any new applications for Wishes. We weren't able to fill the original Wish of a lot of those children for safety reasons, and at any given time some children were passing away because that's the situation we were in, so we had to rapidly adapt and focus on those 2000 kids whilst protecting the organisation from the financial challenges. It was loads of adaption, as much of it as possible, being child-led. It might be “if you can't wait, what would be an alternative Wish for you?” We did hundreds of those.?

We adapted to stuff that we could do - we did a lot more around gaming, for instance, both as a fundraising opportunity and wish opportunity because that was what kids were doing.?

You shift the sorts of Wishes that you do, you shift the sort of fundraising that you do. You stop doing stuff that you can't do any longer and you find opportunities amongst all that chaos, and then you come through it. And that's what we've done.?

Q: In terms of people donating, did you find that that slowed down or stopped completely because of your situation? Or did you find that people were more generous??

It depends on the supporters. Most of them are ongoing relationships, so some supporters really stepped up and gave more.?

But then, inevitably, whilst we're less dependent on mass fundraising, that's the area of growth that we need to realise. The biggest single fundraising hit was just physically stuff that couldn't go ahead. A lot of events clearly couldn't go ahead, we lost about 40% of our income in the first few months. Again, under those circumstances, you've got to not just protect the organisation via the reserves, but make sure that you are not spending money on stuff you can't do, or on salaries that you can't justify?

Q: Have any of the changes that you made during COVID had surprising outcomes? Have you maintained anything or learned anything new from them??

Yes, definitely. Our default setting now is a combination of virtual, hybrid, and physical, whereas that wasn't the case previously. We do a lot more online now. We have a Wish Journey, where we capture the Wish with the child, and it’s a child-led conversation. Many more of those, even though we are in a partially post COVID world, are still taking place online. I mentioned gaming; the number of gaming related Wishes went up. Video games get a bit of a bad rep, but actually what we found is that gaming was already a really important way of socialising for young people, particularly those young people who were otherwise isolated, and that just became even more important for Wish children. It then gave us a great entry point into that industry as a whole, because we're not just going in and asking for money. As a result of that we've built relationships on a network that we can now further build upon and establish ourselves as a credible partner.?

The way we work as employees has also changed. We were already flexible; we got rid of core working hours a long time ago before COVID because we believe in flexibility and agility and trust moreover. That helped us through COVID, but now it's unusual to have everyone in our “Hub” at the same time. You know that's for better or for worse, and then it's trying to work out then how to sort of guide ourselves in terms of way of working as an employee team now in the best possible way. Bear in mind, everybody has their own individual preferences and their own responsibilities outside of work.

Q: What does Make-A-Wish view as digital transformation? What do you view as digital fundraising for a charity??

I guess there's a difference between digital transformation and digital fundraising, so I’ll answer the question about digital transformation first. The problem is, “transformation” is one of those words where it's overused because there isn't an obvious replacement for it. So it becomes this umbrella term for loads and loads of different things. Digital transformation needs to exist within the context of a strategy, right? From a Make-A-Wish perspective, our aspiration isn't to digitally transform. Our aspiration is to is to grant the Wish of every eligible child. Digital transformation just becomes a way of the way of achieving that. It's a means to an end, not an end in its own right.?

For the past four years we've invested in establishing a single organisational platform, and we're about three or four months away from completing that. It's a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of pain, and now every stage of the Wish journey is now supported by that platform. We've got the basis at least for efficiency, automation and a foundation for really good user experiences which can be locked into the same platform. One of the ways that we're going to reach every child is to enable a network essentially of volunteers and partners, and to give more and more of the responsibility, more and more autonomy, to that network as opposed to employees doing it.??

But it's impossible to do that at scale without technology, at least not without a bunch of different inefficiencies. We have developed apps around that for specific user experiences. I'll give an example: we've been working with JP Morgan on an app that enables us to attract gifts in kind for Wishes. Then, rather than asking for money we’re asking for services that we can directly apply to individual issues or to groups at risk. So if it's a Princess party, there's all sorts of materials that can go into that that we can draw down. So that through that you can create a marketplace. You can say “OK, you can give in a very different way.” We've got the ability now to identify individual children in an individual location, so local view into the children in your area. It can give you the ability to either ultimately restrict your donation directly to those children or to an individual child, and/or to provide gifts in kind for those children or any other children.??

For us, digital transformation is helping us to achieve our vision for children, but also our vision of our future organisation, enabling that and engaging with that much, much bigger network of supporters, and that we're now at the foothills of starting to recruit. We’re just starting to recruit volunteers at scale because we've got this in place.?

We’re planning ahead, but with long-term aims in mind, not for the sake of the technology.??

Q: Have you had any challenges with people that are against change??

Yes. The reasons why people object to change through technology is no different to the reasons why people object to change full stop. It's things like fear, a lack of confidence, "I'm too long in the tube for this” or “this isn't for me,” or “I don't understand why we're doing it. It was working fine,” or "you're over complicating things.”??

So how do you address that? In exactly the same way that you address leadership change in all other ways: you engage people in the development of that technology, from the earliest possible stage and give them the chance to be making the decisions and drive what that technology looks like. What you DON'T do is put a bunch of clever people in the room and then come out the room and say "ta-da, it's all done.” You know that won't work, even if it's a perfect technology solution.?

You've got to manage technology programmes to ensure that stakeholders are engaged in a real way in decision making. Then, ultimately they're left with a tool that they've helped design. That's the way to lead people through technological change.?

[Emma: That's such a good answer. Speaking from the perspective of someone who's experienced this, that's just music to my ears. 'Like you say, the whole “here you go, we've built this for you.” “Well, actually, I don't want that, it doesn't do what I need it to do” is the worst. You lose trust in the leadership, and your peers.]?

Q: Topical one. There seem to be lots of charity vacancies around. And charities are struggling to recruit. What do you think the charity sector needs to do to make coming into it - and staying in it - more appealing??

That's a really good question. Some people have been calling this the “Great Resignation.” I prefer calling it the “Great Reflection” rather than the Great Resignation. Things will never be the same as they were pre-Covid, for better or for worse. People are bound to naturally reflect on that, thinking, “Is this still what I want? I might want different things now 'cause the world has changed around me and in fact I've changed too.” If you as an employer could understand what is driving that motivation, both in terms of your existing employees and attracting potential employees, be prepared to adapt to that and meet that sort of challenge. True flexibility, basically, it's about trust. It's as simple as that. You need an organisation where your default position needs to be “we trust everyone.” And then if you're any good, you'll notice when people aren't performing. Trust aligned with accountability brings success.

Culturally I think you've got to build a foundation of trust, that gives you a platform for a really distinctive employee to employ a proposition. Do not, in my opinion, do not place mandatory “you need to be working X number of days per week” anywhere.

Do not value time, value outcomes. I think people are looking for meaning. I think people across the board are looking for meaning wherever you're working now, which opens up fantastic opportunities for the sector, both in terms of employment and volunteering opportunities. We've got to be way more open to that.?

We in charity are still far too inward looking. We still think we are different and special in every single way, and we're not really. We do great things. But I think we've always been a sector that doesn't look out enough actually to attract talent. If we could see you can provide meaning in a way that nobody else can, that's really important. That's a value to people. We can be as flexible as we want to be, we just need to trust people and build a culture around that.?

Even with just those two things, I think you can attract better talent and I think you'll keep people. More importantly, you'll keep people happy as well.?

Q: Obviously you have a very emotive cause. Do you think that the cause itself has a role in keeping people onboard? Or do you think it's how you treat your employees? Is it the pay? Is it the benefits??

OK, so first of all, don't recruit anybody who doesn't believe with a passion in your cause, because if you recruit people whose primary motivation is not that, you will not create a mission-led culture. You've got to be a mission-led culture for lots of different reasons. You won't be anywhere near as effective if that's not the case.?

A lot of it is about leadership. I think that you've got to find your own love for the cause, for you as an individual leader - again don't lead an organisation unless you absolutely believe 100% in that and recognise it's way more important than you are. Get the egos out of way, get the mission coming through, and I think you will then maximise the attraction of that mission to improve this.?

I think it be too easy to say “our cause isn’t as emotional as that other cause.” You've got to be attached to it. You've got to be connected to it in every way. I think for us to a certain extent, the cause has an influence on the culture of the organisation, and as it is a very emotional cause and it sometimes involves the death of children. And therefore there are lots of times when there are tears at work and that sort of stuff. The positive side of that from the employer point of view is that engagement isn't a problem. Commitment isn't a problem.?But well-being can be a problem because people will overdo it - I think people are so passionate about what they're doing that they sometimes forget themselves.?

So they're going to attempt things that might be achievable, but they're not great for your individual well-being. Therefore, people have left because they couldn't cope with it anymore. There's always a shadow side to the positive bit. Our shadow side is the well-being, particularly for those people in the front line who are dealing directly with the loss of a child; they obviously have a relationship with the family around that.?

[Emma: Yes, like you say, things have changed...The way I think COVID as a whole made people reflect, and a lot of that reflection was “Why have I been working myself into the ground for so long when life is short and I've got a family that I don't see?" For me, having a young child, it was really hard, work was extremely busy, it was very stressful and I had a 2 year old at home. So on one hand I was “this is so hard,” but on the other, I saw so much of her that I would have missed]

The wonderful thing about times like this is this has been, you know - similarly, I was at home juggling virtual lessons with my daughter whilst doing Zooms. I would say that we've come out of that closer, and now I can pick her up from school more than I would have otherwise done. And that’s a gift really.

There are really positive things that have come out of all this.

Q: You came into the charity sector from a marketing background and have since worked at a few charities. What is it that makes you stay in the sector??

It has meaning and purpose and legacy, and also I wanted to make it better. I'm not one of these people who would defend the charity sector at all costs, because I think there's so much more potential that the sector hasn't yet realised. We're quite big on leadership, and I think it's woeful at times to be honest, the leadership across the sector. I think it's nowhere near good enough, and that part of my personal mission is “can we improve leadership across the sector?” because if we can then we'll change so many more lives. That's really become so intrinsic to me that I couldn't see myself going back into business.?

I think this has been my happiest time of Make-A-Wish, and part of the reason for that is two things, really. There's the opportunity to leave behind an organisation which is capable of achieving its mission and its vision. The Make-A-Wish that I leave behind will be my biggest achievement in my whole career. I'm pretty certain, but then, I don't know. Again on a more personal level, it's the moments that I've shared with families and children that will never leave me, and I know it will never leave them.?

And within the context of some really dark stuff, for them to have shared at that particular moment, with sometimes really intense happiness, and to know that I had any role in making that happen? That's life changing, really. So there’s a macro bit and a micro bit, and they both mean a lot, just in different ways.?

Q: What advice would you give to someone with the goal of becoming a charity CEO? What's the best piece of advice you have been given??

Ask yourself why before you come. Before you decide to apply for such a role, ask yourself why you want to do it, because if the answers are - and this is one thing I've learned as well because you don't come out the box like this - if it's about you, don't do it. Seriously, if it's about your career ambition, or if it's about your ego or anything like that, don't do it. Let someone else do it. It's too important for that and even if it's part of why people apply for jobs, just be really open to becoming that leader that is solely about serving a mission rather than about serving themselves. That's what you've got to do. If even if at the point of application, even at that point recruitment you're not quite in that space, you've got to become that. Otherwise you can't lead. You're not fit to lead. Best piece of advice I've been given.?

Q: Did you/do you have a mentor??

I've had a mentor and a coach at the same time. I've had a coach now for about five years...It's hard to touch upon a specific moment or a specific piece of advice. What I would say is that emotional resilience is critical to this, and you can't do that on your own right? So make sure you've got support around you that isn't your chair, isn't the trustees, but is somebody independent, or preferably both, who you can fully share everything with. I think I would have really struggled at times without that.?

One of the things I've learned about this job is that there isn't really fundamentally a 'work Jason' and a 'personal Jason'. In the Chief Executive role, if you don't give your full self to it as a leader then you won't be effective, right? Therefore those conversations have to cover everything in your life. Because you can't just do this bit over there that be over there. Taking care of yourself, building emotions and taking the time to get people to help you with that, I think, is critical.?

[Emma: Yeah, I guess that links to the whole sort of leave-your-ego-at-the-door type thing, so it's not you coming up with everything, it's not you deciding that your idea is the right idea, it's working with other people, talking things through and getting their input as well and advice, and not just saying “this is me, I'm in charge. Do what I say.”]?

Nobody wants to be told what to do. Even I don't want to be told what to do. If you want to be told what to do you're probably in the wrong organisation. One of the phrases that we have is that we want decisions to be made as close to the child as possible. The fewer decisions that I’m making, the more effective we’ll be as an organisation, no question about that.??

That should be a fundamental truth of any of any organisation?

[Emma: Again, music to my ears and relevant for every business and every charity!]?

Fundamentally, fundraising is about relationships, and I don't think you have a relationship with somebody unless you're interested in them. Don't be a fundraiser unless you're interested in what makes people tick. And I think listening is underrated because you don't get to know somebody unless you do that.?

One of the things I love about why I'm able to do, it is that I get to know really interesting successful people. And being able to give them something they couldn't otherwise realise is a wonderful experience. If you're rooted in a mission, you can connect on a really deep level with somebody that you otherwise would have nothing in common with. That can lead to amazing things: lots of money, long term relationships, all those sorts of things.?

[Emma: Exactly. Whether they're the owner or supporter or a member of staff, you need to build really great relationships, because if you like someone you want to do whatever you can to help them. It's absolute basics. In terms of charities, you can't just send an e-mail that says “thanks for your donation/fundraising.” It's not good enough. You need to get to know people.]?

And slightly obvious, the fundamentals don't change depending on the scale of the supporter, and that's where technology has to come in. There's a certain point where you've got to bring technology much more into it in order for that supporter to really believe "We understand you. We have your best interests at heart.” That's doable remotely, obviously just in a different way.?

Q: In terms of new functionality and technology, if you could produce any gadget/tool to help your charity, what would that be??

That's a good one. This is going to be a really obvious thing to say: I'm interested in the power of brilliant user experiences, 'cause I think I think that fundamentally that's what technology businesses are built upon, and I think that's what organisations that utilise technology well get right. The most important user experience that we provide is a Wish.?

To answer your question directly: an app that aids Wish capture and stimulates the imagination of the child in a fully inclusive way. Inspiring a child provides the basis for a magical experience. That would be my wish.?

Q: As a CEO, how would you like to think your team would describe you??

When people ask me what I do for a living I say “I work for Make a Wish” I don't say “I'm the CEO of Make a Wish” because the job title speaks of self-importance. Even if you're trying everything you possibly can do to break down any sense of hierarchy in an organisation, there is still a label attached to you, and it's quite difficult to avoid that completely, so therefore there will be a filter that'll be applied to you. It's the old cliche, you know “people become funnier when they become Chief Execs. Everybody’s laughing at your joke” doesn't make you any funnier, it just means you have a different job title, so don't fall for that one. So you never really therefore get a 100% clear sense about what people think, because there was always going to be a bit of a filter.

Except what would I like? I'd like them to say that I'm here for the child on our wider mission.?

I’m genuine about what I do and I'm open, that I trust them and I guess that we share something important.

[Emma: That's definitely how you come across to me ;)]

-?

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with Good Thyngs, Jason!?