Change Management (7,321 words)

This is a transcript of the BA Video Series Linkedin Live webinar on Change Management

You can also listen to this video via the podcast

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Speakers

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino

Przemyslaw Gawronski

Vijay Nair

Intro

Vijay Nair:

Good morning, LinkedIn. Welcome to the session, for the BA video series. the topic for today is change management. we've got two speakers from, our panelists today.

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

Hi everyone. Hi Jay. Hi, my name is and I'm a leadership coach. a company called to leadership. We are at global partnership building with and, and, pain has both as an employee in the past and, other consultants. But I would say that we all deal with pain with say one of our life. So maybe as a psychologist, because my background is psychology.

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

I'm also a consultant, where in the leadership area. And I'm also an ODI consultant organization development. So we lead big cheer change processes in organizations. And, I'll share some more information about that during my part of the presentation. besides that I'm, I'm an ICO teacher and I spent a lot of time in the dojo practicing, starting today at 6:00 AM for instance.

So that's how I got to work with, with people. So. We work with, with managing boards and mainly managing boards and to top management about leading change in their organizations. It turns out usually to be a culture change initiative, but, we tend to avoid this kind of term because when. You've come to people and you say, we're going to, we're going to change the culture here.

They get terrified. So, we have, we have other ways to do it, which eventually turns into a culture change initiative, but that's not a good way to start.

Project Experiences

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

 I was thinking about a question, I questioned this morning before talking about the experience that is in our life. We all deal with change many types of page.

So before going into the organizations, Think about ourselves. And it would be interesting to know, from who wants to reply, there is someone listening or from you, what are the things that are really preventing us from change? So are raising our resistances to change, even when it's something that we plan to do by ourself, like, okay, I'm smoking and I want to quit smoking.

Okay. if you have to tell me one or two things that have provoked this resistance to this change in your life, what, what would be, maybe I can ask this question to renew, but VJ or you press, press name, or if anyone through who retired. 

Vijay Nair:

Makes it difficult for the change to happen? Maybe of course we are so used to the way, the way of the working practice and the way of, you know, they're used to, at least for some of us who worked in the XYZ company for a long time, we've were used to a certain way on how things are done. And adaptability sometimes becomes for the difficult for those who've been working for so long in a certain type of environment.

So there's also the fear maybe. There's also a little bit of a fear, you know what, what if you change, it's going to disturb the way of life of how we do things and the organization and, you know, we don't, we don't, we cannot identify the level of risk. So all these unknown factors are some of the reasons for it.

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

I'm not sure if that's convenient to present something in a now or later, but, I, I'm not sure we haven't spoken to that, but I, there there's a slide about resistance and in the context of, bigger systemic change. there's, there are three levels of resistance and, identified by dear colleague and a consultant Rick mower.

And he says at liver liberal one resistance is that people. Oh, people don't, don't understand it. why, why we're heading for change. And, this is, this is maybe because they lack information. they, they don't have the correct tools to interpret the data. They don't have some crucial data why the changes needed a second.

Second level of resistance is that I don't understand it. I mean, I don't, I don't like it, and this is much more difficult to identify because. This is more about the internal part of the human beings about their emotions and they're not, and, I'm not, here as well as somebody that is free from that.

But. Sometimes it's not easy to admit that I'm afraid of, of, of this change or, that something will be happening and, and a culture in a big, in a big organization where you have an M and a merger acquisition or some kind of, so I'm going to restructure the first question comes to mind. Okay. We'll do we'll, there'll be an, and the layoffs.

 So maybe my boss will think that, okay, maybe I'm not the right person for this job. So, so this is, so this is the second level. And the third level is that whoever initiates the change in their organization, if I don't like this person, or I don't trust this person, I will not follow.

And, so those are, those are three levels of, of, of resistance and each level. you can't solve a level two with, resistance with level one. If somebody is afraid, you cannot just pour more data onto them. And, hope that he'll be, get on board. And the same, if, if, if somebody doesn't like me as a leader of change or change agent, And doesn't trust me or it doesn't trust, trust my leadership.

it really doesn't matter if the person understands the change and even things that this is, this might be good because if I'm the leader of change and I don't have to trust the person that will not follow will resist, will sabotage. 

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

It's interesting because the words that I hear from you are, I bet. So going beyond an Abbot and I've heard you're on break. It's like our brain is becoming very alert.

I think about the places that I've lived, I've lived, I think about one that I've lived personally and others that I've lived on the guns and.

Well, what you're saying is completely true. listen, stance that people don't really understand the reason why behind the thing. And, we'll call that an element of maybe what the core prop of coherence between what is plaid and brick. Okay. And what is, Hey, let me go to the real pain I've worked for, Costa cruises for three years as an HR for the training and development on board ships.

And this happened after, the famous I'm famous case of Costa Concordia accident. what's interesting is that, What's worse, an accident dealing with safety, that for a business that has big. The one of cruise industry is very crucial. This, safety accident was impacted by the leadership style and the hierarchies that were like an Abbot into the company.

So in cruise ships, there is that high and rigid hierarchy where the captain is. Mm. It's like, God, like God bored. So what he decides, he has also a lot of responsibilities and what he decides. It's a rule. What is interesting in terms of change is that after the accident, the company understood that the change that they needed was not only a change in terms of safety procedures that were anyway, The revised, obviously, but it was a change of the leadership style that was prevalent since ages.

So if you think about the first cruise ship in the world, and then. It were centuries that people were used to have this kind of structure inside the company and what Costa has started to do. And it's, I mean, it's something that is, valid till now, because they are still working on it. Is to reshape the way people wear lead.

And I would say that sometimes it's easier to change something that is concrete and tangible than something that is. So the so-called soft part of management. Such as leadership skills and behaviors inside the company, because when you want to implement a new tool, the first part could seem very easy.

Merger and acquisition. You do the due diligence. Eh, you start the negotiation. That's that's, that's not easy obviously, but in the end, In terms of change. I would say that I can be provocative here and I expect to be challenged, but I, I would say that that's the easiest part, because changing is sad. The the way people are used to behave.

So the habits and, changed the way they give meaning to their roles. And the responsibilities is even more difficult and it takes a lot of time and patience. So, connecting to what you were saying. for people in cost star during that change, I've seen, I've seen teams where this changes were welcomed in a, in a better way.

and that was really depending first on the fact that that kind of change of leadership style, new behaviors. Was explained and were explained very carefully and well, they advantages for them. So I need, if I want I'm resistant to change such as any human being because of what you were saying before, what VJ was mentioning before.

But if I'm explained the reason why, and I really am the sense that the reason that, okay, there are more chances that my. Resistances, we'll go a little bit. we'll decrease a bit. Another thing that I've seen that was working in certain teams. And teams, I mean also the management of the ship. So I was, I wasn't HR on boards.

maybe a ship and a ship you have to imagine is like, subsidiary of a company. Okay. So the, where maybe 1,500 employees on board and top management, that was the captain with the, the, the management of the ship, et cetera. So, I've seen that in certain ships, this change was explained. The advantages were really, really carefully explained.

And also, management was coherent with what they were preaching and this was really working. So. I would say that for me, some of the things that have worked well, and I have, tried to replicate this model in, when I was consulting companies that had to change was to first let the, the management understand very well.

The reason why and the advantages for the employees, and then also to involve all the staff and let them understand why it was important and urgent for them. Obviously, in the case of Costa, that was easier because it's the accident made it urgent in certain other cases. We need to, to make the effort and bring companies to make the effort, to, to let the change become very urgent for, for all the people involved.

And, another thing, that I would. I would really mention is the, you know, it's a bit of a FA of a buzzword. Now we are all talking about bottom up approach, but I'm really a fan of it in the sense that if you don't listen to what are the doubts, what are the resistances of people? You are missing one important piece.

And now there are technology system that can help you to do it. But I would, I would say that when. The management was going out of the tower of the crystal tower and getting their hands a little bit dirty in the sense that they had to face the resistances of people, the doubts and, and talk to them and understand why.

Some changes were not welcomed. These was a crucial step. So listening involving also, you know, we are coach and we are used to, to, to, to, to use questions and questions. If you use them well, have a power that is to create a dialogue, not unidirectional dialogue, but you are. Actually, creating solution together with people.

So this is another thing that I've seen working. Well, the opposite side, there were teams where this was not happening and I'm the worst. That's kind of communication that I called the fake communication, where we take the messages coming from the headquarter from the CEO and we repeat them and we don't really practice them.

So I would say that in a change, people can really perceive this sort of lack of coherence and they stay with all their doubts and fears. And this could be really, a great obstacle for, for a change process if I go. And this is another example, another case that I would like to bring all of, instead of so-called minor change, I've worked with a lot of banks that insurances as a consultant and, At a certain point, many of them were implementing the CRM, the customer relationship management tool.

So pretty easy new technology, new tool, you implement it, you buy the software, you make the technical training. That's it magic. That's what's not happening. Why? Because for example, in the insurances, there are many agents. That's our broker. They work with different insurances. They are freelancers. They are very jealous of their on contacts, details of the prospects and clients.

Why should they think about putting this data on a, on a software managed by the company? So they were not using it, even if they're the technical training was, was running properly. So what we did as consultants was to. Really work on letting them understand the benefits for them in this case. That was for example, that, the company could do business intelligence with the data and create personalized project problem products that were helping in the end, from the brokers to sell, sell better.

So there w it was a win-win solution. But that passage was not easy. So the first very, the very first thing that we did was to make sure that they could all understand the reason why. And, and again, I go back to you what you said before. Again, trust. Because many times the, the structure of how a company is structured, the structures, the processes are not facilitating the structure, the distrust, for example.

So if I know that I'm not a direct employee of the company, if I am measured, On my individual results. This structure will not produce a behavior that he has, that I collaborate with other colleagues, or I collaborate with a company sharing information, for example, and, and I've seen this, I'm seeing this happening a lot in, in company.

So, in terms of systemic change, I would say that a change process cannot work well. If we don't tackle all the aspects, the tar, the leadership, how you create and communicate the vision, the structures of the company. then, so the decision making process, how do you make decisions in a team or in an organization?

how do you manage stakeholder in, in, in a change process? So all of these aspects have to be coherent. So the first thing that we did was creating, let's say a vision in that case of, of the insurance companies, letting them understand the why and, making sure that there was.

And let's say a dialogue between the management of the insurance and their brokers. That again, they were independent, but they were in, in the end, they were strictly dependent on the products that the company was building for them and for their clients. So, these are where the, the, the, the two insights, but obviously there are many, because think if you think about this year 2020, we are, we are all dealing with a huge change.

And here again, we could talk for a lot, so I would leave the floor for now. And maybe we go back.

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

I'll mentioned lunch to two things here, what, what Valeria you mentioned, I can only build on that. And, we, w how change usually is planned is that you're here. And you want to get here, and those are the steps you want to take on the way.

And on the piece of paper, that's just fabulous. Whatever, if you want to implement a CRM or new technology or something else that just works great. That's where you hire consultants from the big four company. And, and they, they give you a nice diagram, how things should look, what will be the new structure and recipes for everything, but then they leave.

And, the problem is that this change has to be implemented by human beings. And as on piece of paper, the budget, the timing, the requirements, everything is predictable. It can count it, you can summarize it. and just how often a big change process or any change process went exactly the way you planned it.

That literally never. I mean, I love the saying from Mike Tyson, he said when he was asked this heat that you plan for, for every fight and he says, yeah, of course I plan. I, I study, my, my opponent and, great. So how's that work out? Well, I forget about the plan when the first time I get hidden to head in the ring, because then the plan is gone.

Because once the plan hits reality and you make, you have human beings doing it, that's, that's a totally different story. So what we say is that, okay, same time at the, we call this model, the water line at above the water line is what's, what's visible, calculated. It can be predicted and written down, and then you give it to human beings where you have all the subtle things, the emotions that likes the dislikes.

And everything there is only predictable. So we say above the waterline is the Newtonian world. And, and to, and below the waterline, you have a liquid, you have the quantum world, but everything is only possible. Probable there's influence. You cannot really guarantee anything. You can, you can hope you can, you can influence, but people will have to deliver it.

And if it works or not, well, that just time shows. And then I also would like to say a word about a, the bottom up approach. We, we've done a few projects for, for several thousand people, where, what we do is we call this the breakthrough process where we actually come as consultants into the organization and we train internal consultants.

What we create is diagonal slice. Of the organization, starting from the top management, somebody from the board, all the way to the frontline person who, I don't know, sales tickets, whatever, or opens the door and into office. And we trained those consultants to, to become consultants. And, they actually do the work.

they, we assist them, but they go out and they engage the whole company, several thousand people. In the process. So they, they gather data. We trust the data. What has to change is in the, in the company, but there's just not the right environment for that to emerge, to be named. So we work with them, in the process.

And of course we know that the outcome, if it, if it works out well, is a major change initiative, major culture change initiative in their organization. But if you start coming and say that we're going to change you. We're going to change, make change you. And that doesn't work. People don't like to be changed, but if you tell them, okay, so what, what for you could work better?

So they come up with great ideas and then we say, okay, so let's think of a way how to get there. So they come up with a plan. Of course, this plan is also on a piece of paper. Then it goes through the process. And it doesn't always land where we're, where plant was planned, but it, they have the ownership.

And then it turns out after a year or two, that this was a huge culture change initiative for the whole organization. Well, hopefully it doesn't have to be so dramatic as for the coast Costa, ships, where that was a really, big, big thing. but, any, any change of a system or merger acquisition as a huge change.

we worked for, we, we ran a, process for, one of, high-tech companies here in Poland, where they became, Company of over 2000 people and a managing board knew they have to within a year, let go of 800 people. And this is no, no, not a change that you can ignore. And, one of the, the big four consulting companies was hired to design how the new company should look like.

Of course, everybody was terrified with that, but they had a requirement that they will work with us because they will work. above the waterline, designing the processes, describing, predicting everything, et cetera. And we'll work below the waterline with people to go through through this change, because what often happens is that when the managing board or somebody a decision-maker, th th th th the owner of the project, he has time.

To go through the whole change process in his mind, which is that you first, when you realize that you have to go through the process, you're in shock and denial, then you have some fear, anger and well resistance along the way. And eventually grudgingly accepted until you become fully committed to the, to the process.

This doesn't happen like this. This is time and very often somebody who has a decision-making went through this process for. Few weeks, months, sometimes even more and then announces, okay, we're going to do this. And then the 2000 people, they're expected actually to go through this process overnight and, and emotionally, psychologically, they have the same path to go through.

And if, if you don't give them assistance, guidance and help with that, this is not gonna work. This might work on paper, but then that's the reason why, 70% of major changes fail because, if people just, it's not that everybody's, Oh, there are people that are really excited about change. They love change and that's great, but that's, that's like 10% of the whole population from the system.

Then you have 10% that that is totally against always. They might not survive the change and they will drop out because they choose to, or they're chosen to leave. And then they have the 80% that they just don't know. They, they they're afraid that they don't know that they don't know what's going to be happening.

You have to give them time and lead them through this change. So, in this, in this example, of this company, a tech company, the 800 people, they actually were led off in one year, but nobody sued the company and. Everybody, every manager that worked at new to, to the position they're currently holding might not be there in one year.

So for example, there was like a, there was, cause it was a combination of three companies, three managing directors and marketing directors. They knew there's only one of them. If one, because maybe somebody from the outside will be brought in, will take over. So they all worked. All three of them worked at the very last day for the benefit of whoever will be taking over now.

And how do you motivate people to stay in this attitude and knowing that chances are one, two, three, or even less for them to be in this role? so we actually let the process with them. And so they created the process how to, how to stay dedicated, motivated, although they know that my next day, might they might not be coming.

So that's hard work, but as Valeria, you said, if you don't engage people into it, it's just not going to work because they're, they're actually the ones that are making the change. So because on paper, the change is really nice. It looks great. And, everybody gets excited about it. But once you get people involved and doing the change, that's where the struggle comes.

So if you don't, if people don't understand it, Or don't like it, or they don't trust you as, as the, as the leader. And to, as you also said, they have to be a coherent consistent. They have to walk their talk. And the best way is to actually show by their example that they're changing. Because very often we work with a man with a manager who comes okay, can you come in and help me?

Because my team, they have to change. Well, it's not that they have to change. You all have to change with you, including because you're part of the system. Even if they change, if you don't change, everything is going to go back to the same way. Like it was before you have to be part of the change. You have to lead the change.

You have to show what, what, what the change is for you and show the example, how you struggle and how you make take the benefits. And, so this is, this is, this is, Not very often. People want to admit it, but this is very personal thing and it's such a change process.

 I can share just one more, one more thing, because why maybe why organizations have to change. because, well we know we know each other from the power MBA.

So w we're from, from, from the startup point of view, E the organizations have different, different phases of, of growth of development, as like every, every. Every living system, you have the embryonic. So like the startup, then you, then you have growth, which is scaling. Then you have maturity.

And actually eventually every, every living system is going to die, a kind of decline. And on each of those stages, different qualities are required and a different attitude. So on startup there's, there's no mistakes. There's only learnings. And in growth period, you already have the idea how things should be going.

So there's already some making mistakes, but, that, but still they're tolerated, but in the mature fart of bigger organizations, they have a rule for everything. They have a process for everything, and there's no room for innovation. There's no room for change. This is growth, but this is very stable.

This is very slowly changing system. And if they don't in each of those phases, different qualities are required from the management. So very often it happens. We have that in our program. A lot of examples that they, yeah, they created a startup. They, they, they sold it and they started working on another startup because they are just crazy about innovation.

They don't want to see how the system goes into the, the, maturity phase where everything's stable, the running the business is running well, and you just check the bonuses. They don't, they're not excited about that at all. And one of the things that we work sometimes with, with, with startups, is that okay, how to get you ready as a team, as a young team for the later phase.

Because you might have hard time getting along together because you're not, this is not the moment to come up with all new, crazy ideas, because we have to actually let the market decide that this idea is good or not. We have to make it a living thing. And some people are just not excited about it. They they're just crazy about ideas.

So what happens? So each company, when they get to the maturity phase, they, this is the moment where you want to be sold. So they're a merger, acquisition comes in place or some other dramatic change. like for example, Kodak, the adventure film. Yes, they, they actually created the digital camera, but, they, they didn't believe that this change will ever be needed because the quality will never be good enough to, to, replace the, the, the, the physical, film.

And, and, and they failed and they got, they got, they, they, they grown from the embryonic to the growth and the maturity. They were very mature company. And then they had to go through a breakthrough process that they didn't, they had just opportunity on the plate. They created it for themselves. They just didn't use it.

And now they're gone. I mean, 15 years ago, who would believe that callback will be gone, will, will not exist. Nobody. Yeah. So this is an example that even big systems they do fail. If they don't come at central point into some really change, big change, on a systemic level, they will not survive. 

Vijay Nair:

I was just going to talk a little bit about that, that the change aspect of, I mean, the up question I had, was more towards, if the change requires, as you said, like in the last project, 800 people. I had to let go in the process of the change. if, if, if the leader, the decision maker has to make a different, angle, an angle that benefits, the most office company or his, or her company, what advice would you give over there so that the setback or the people that are effected the most.

Don't feel, as you said, they're not going to Sue the company or they're not going to have this anger towards the employer. Who did that change at? What, how did you position that? I guess I'm trying to understand how that would make it easier?

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

That's there's no easy answer for that. I'm afraid. And, and, eh, the reason here it worked very well is, well, first of all, The CEO was very respected and liked by people in the company.

And he had trust of the people. He was, he still is. He's not running the company more, but he's, he he's a true leader. So they really trusted him. So he made sure that the communication, and there. It was very clear that everybody knew the numbers, that this is just not possible for the company to go on like this.

And, and everybody, eh, he made it also very clear that, that, that the board will have to be making tough decisions. So the way it was dealt with, Is that how on different positions people were recruited for the new position? for example, I gave the example of the three, marketing directors, is that the decision was that there can be only one, but how it's worked out.

we facilitated the process within them, how it will be the best fair method to, come up with the best candidate. So they worked out their criteria and what's needed. And actually an external company, was hired to, validate that. And it was their decision, but it wasn't their common agreement. It was their process.

They created the process. We just facilitated that difficult and challenging conversations that they happen. But then they came up with the solutions. And, the, the lowered winter, of course it kind of easier. It, it was because, but, but still it was, it, the announcement was that there will be so and so many positions.

And people have to work out together within themselves, how they're they will be selected. So it was a very democratic of course the final word was always by the CEO and the managing board, but the, they were given recommendations by the people from below. So it was, it was, initiative that involved a whole, the whole organization.

Yeah, that wasn't, that was also of course present, the, the, the, I mean, that's why I said that because it was pretty straightforward when you got to the lower level that you have to give them training how to exactly right. CV, maybe they want to, Redesign their life and do something totally different.

So there was special budget for them to give them trainings to actually, get a new specialization. Cause they, they, they used it as an opportunity to actually develop something totally new and go in a different direction. And the company paid for that. So that was of course, that was of course, present.

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

There is a project in Italy, that is providing, entrepreneurship trainings for people that are living a company. Because as, as you are saying, maybe the person that the leaving companies and occasion to start something totally different. That you'd never had the courage to do.

And a proper training could help even, even more than having a resume, a perfect resume. So that, that kind of support in the end, whether it's a training, a soft top training or personal branding skills, I think that's our way to be appreciated. But, I also recollect, a memory from my, my first job experience.

I joined a little amount, metal land. it's a retail in, in the 

home building, 

building exactly. in 2011 and they acquired a company called pastor drama, in 2000, 2009 to when the merger and acquisition. Was not yet communicated. The chart director in Italy told to its people, Hey, the, the, the director of the ramen line told, Hey, we have been acquired by Sarama.

So he actually, yeah, the lights, but it was a, what I call the white lie. and people stayed for one or two days thinking that they were wired. After two days, he told them the truth. That was the opposite actually. But he wanted people to feel, to feel in the belly, how the people from the Anglo company they acquire the acquired company could feel in that exact moment.

and, and that was a very intelligent move in my opinion, because. The more you empower prize, the more you are a mold to how that's all changed your, your behavior, the way you are dealing with a person coming from a different companies. And we know that merger and acquisitions sometimes requires two cultures.

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

And, that's a, that's like a second, second secondary question because that kind of, it kind of depends on what kind of change we're thinking. But, I think the first, first thing is, who is the owner and who's the sponsor of this initiative, because you, if you don't, if your scope is, Like a local, four team then the, the, the team leader, he's like the owner and he's responsible.

Who's the person to say yes or no to this, or, but if you want to initiate some, system change on the, for the whole organization, you have to have somebody on board, that, that is from the managing board. And you have to have a good relationship with this person that this person trusts you, trust your advice and trust your recommendations.

That's the first, first thing. How do you do that? That's, that's a totally different story. How you build trust, how you, how you gain trust and how do you prove your value? But, that, that will definitely be the, be the first, their first step. And, and second, if you wanted, the change to be system-wise, the managing board or the sponsor has to be the sample of the team.

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

 I think there are many rules, but. Following up, building up on what you're saying? system wise, I would say that again, the change needs to be tackled at various level. So you want to change, people, behaviors. You need to see how structures and processes are supporting this change. You need to see what are the values and real vision practice by people inside.

So you need to make the change, not something that is just supported by, for example, sometimes to change a structure. But the culture, the values that are instead in, in a company are not supporting it. And this happens for example, when a very good product company wants to become a digitally novelty, startup, type oriented.

Okay. You can introduce the. The new tool, for example, but you need to reshape the culture. Sometimes it's the reverse. Sometimes you promote a fantastic vision, compelling vision, but then you have old structures. So I would say that's a good change. Need to be implemented at various level in a systemic way to really.

So you have, awareness and, you won the reason behind the change to be, to be known and, people are being aware of, and then you need to raise the desires for the, for desire.

then there is a knowledge that you need to have, for example, the trainings that I was mentioning before you provide the relevant training to. To be sure that people are involved and, and know how to deal with this change. And the training then become, develops the ability. So let's imagine that digital transformation, you provide the training on digital, but then people become digitally savvy.

and the AR is the reinforcement final. I mean, you, you, you. Somehow you follow up on what you have done and you make sure that it's still, that is consolidated. I would say that it's a valid model. again, it's, it depends on how you do it and the processes are, it may have been, are very helpful. So I would always start from there.

Awareness and desire. So again, when you, when you say you want to make the change, something relevant for people and somehow urgent at company that is not digitalized, do they? Well, it's urgent, but it's also desirable because, digital is something that will facilitate maybe. the conversation among people, the collaboration it's just go deep.

So the first phase to make it clear, the reason why, so awareness and desire are very crucial. And sometimes the fear stays in the lack of training, the lack of knowledge. So. I may understand that I need to implement new tools in my team, but I don't have the skills I feel I'm not able to do that. This creates a lot of resistances.

So the other phases, I mean, knowledge and then ability. Are a really, really crucial another modal that I would say that it's very, very interesting. It's copter, I mean, what, what John Carter said about in leading change, they're the eight steps and something that we also use a lot, in my company, it's appreciative inquiry where we seek change, not like a journey from B, but more like, you know, the infinite.

the infinite sign where you build up on what is present? Well, what are the strengths that are already present? What's are the capabilities that we have with how the vital forces of an organization, a team, even you can use it to help a person change. And then you build up from what is already working.

So appreciative inquiry is also, I really like. The model and I, I use it a lot. 

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

 I think the first, first step is gathering data. we get, pretty often called ended, with, with a statement that something's not working, I think. And, and, okay then, What, what is it? And sometimes the person knows and sometimes the person doesn't know. And, eh, could you just go and gather some data?

Because I, I have a feeling, so we pick, some people who we, who we ask questions. Of course there are confidential and we present the data. to, to the sponsor or the, the person that requested it, using quotes. and sometimes those are very, very moving. And if they are very honest, that makes a big impression.

sometimes they will say that, something that is not, Acceptable and to companies norms in their culture and they can swear at something. And if we give that quote, I mean the, the, the owner will never hear that from, from, from his coworker, but we're outside people. They, if we gain their trust and, convinced them that, they can share something.

So we usually ask, okay, what. If you would have a magic wand and you could do anything in your, in your setup, what would you like to, and you can change anything. What would you like to stick to? What would you like to get rid of? And what would you like to change? And, and just anything without any limits in, in the setup.

So they come up with some ideas and, we, we gather, common themes from that. And that's a great starting point because there's a common theme. then there's something really for the system system to work on. 

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

I'm thinking about data and I'm thinking about big data and small data. I don't know if you have heard about this book. It was from written by a business consultant. That was, I mean, doing the opposite of what big data do big data, gather a lot of data and then build up on them. To make a decision, a business decision in small data, you go really in deep, you do like a so-called ethnographic research.

So this consultant was really going into the life of potential customers and understanding what they were leaving and where were the latest needs, because sometimes, there are some limited needs. People are not aware of having a need. And so they are not aware that they need change. If you are able to stop them, you can open up a lot of, of perspectives and make, make REL, change relevant for them maybe.

Przemyslaw Gawronski:

I think that's a necessity, without trust. The question is how you gain trust or how you give trust. And, people, sometimes they're not aware. What they do to gain trust, from somebody. And, they, they actually, when they figure out that they have to take a risk and give trust first, because it's really difficult to ask for trust.

Can you trust me? But if I trust you first and show up with vulnerability and give something, I take a risk, that gives space for you to take a risk. So, and, let's, let's not kid ourselves. Any change initiative is a big risk. so if, if I wouldn't be willing to take any serious risks to, to any advisor that I would not really trust.

Valeria Cardillo Piccolino:

And, if I think about building trust, I think about the capability to. Again, to listen, you build trust by listening and being open. So, but for example, I resistance com if you are ready, pushing that resistance back, and you are not listening to it and exploring it, you're missing an opportunity to build trust.

You are missing an opportunity to read and understand what's the so-called pain point. So letting the other person or the, the, the, the organization ex press the doubts and resistances, listen to them and making sure you are addressing these it's in my opinion, one way to build a real trust, not a fake trust and, and eventually to get, to get the value.

Conclusion

Vijay Nair:

This is a transcript of the BA Video Series Linkedin Live webinar on Change Management

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