Jason: Hello and welcome to the cavnessHR podcast. I'm your host Jason Cavness. Our guest today is Deepak Shaklu. Deepak, are you ready to be great today?

Deepak: I hope so, Jason. I hope so.

Jason: Deepak is a founder, CEO of Pearl Lemon, a multi award winning SEO agency in London. He bootstrapped the business from his mum's house to a 275K company in less than 24 months. He's since gone on to invest in algorithmic trading, launch a five figure online course and continues to grow. Bootstrap is aggressive growth automation or key tenants anything that he starts. He has been featured in TedX, Semrush, BBC, Chesley FC, Appsumo, Bright Talks, and more. When he's not running his agency, you'll find him running marathons, 24 so far. Completing an Ironman, two so far. Getting inked, 40% of his body is covered with tattoos. He owns a cat, Jenny. Deepak thank you for being here today. You're doing a lot of stuff right now. What are you actually focusing on?

Deepak: The agency, definitely, Jason. It's a good question and it's the right question. My agency is definitely the focus. Building that out as successfully as I hope to.

Jason: So, Deepak, one thing I like about you, you're really transparent. If you go to your Linkedin profile, I mean you even have a post of what you do day to day. Have you found being so transparent has helped you, hindered you, or what's your opinion on that?

Deepak: I'm really transparent by nature. I find that it is helpful for me in terms of how I process things and the information that I want when I ask questions. So, I try and reflect that in my brand and in what I explain to people. You know, Jason, I've been fortunate to see that always good things have come of that. You know, even to the extent of me explaining to you exactly why I needed to move rooms, what was happening, why I was doing it, and I think that in today's age, and this was kind of signaled maybe by the big brother movement. Maybe even Orwell and and the people do like to really peep in on others' lives. The more that you allow that to become a gateway instead of like a barrier. I think it can feedback more powerfully into your life with people's reflection of you and your process and therefore trusting you and wanting to work with you. So, I've found it to be nothing but helpful if I'm honest.

Jason: Yes, I'm a big fan being transparent as much as you can. I also noticed, you're on a lot of podcasts, you've done a lot of PR. How has that helped you out with your business? I think it has to be a great thing. Putting your name out there as often as you can.

Deepak: Number one, it definitely has been helpful to exposing me to new audiences as well as getting the opportunity to really connect with someone about an aspect of my life. For example, that I wouldn't ordinarily discuss but is really significant. With podcasts that you go on, there's that piece, the exposure to new audiences. There's, number two, the relationship that you build with great people like yourself, Jason, and the opportunity to just make friends and build that connection. Number three, it's helped me become a better speaker because I've had to really think about, well, what is it that I'm saying? How is it that I'm saying it and in what order should I communicate my story to the world? Number four, I run an SEO agency, Jason, so this helps me get links of course, because you're going to say, Deepak, I link back to your website.

Deepak: It would be crazy for me as a podcast host to not do that for anyone that's on my show. Then number five, I think if you of course, continue to build and grow your show. That means over time I have opportunities for rediscovery by audiences that you have today as well as audiences that you'll have tomorrow. Finally, number six, yes, there's a number six. There's also the fact that you'll share it socially. You just told me about a platform I'd never heard of before. You're like, "Deepak are you okay with it being on YouTube?" I know YouTube, I'm an SEO guy. And then I think you said Twitch? Was it Twitch?

Jason: Twitch, yeah. Twitch TV.

Deepak: Ah, Twitch. So, I've heard of Twitch but I know nothing about it and I'm like, Jesus, I'm learning, I'm going to be on Twitch. This is great. So I would definitely encourage if someone has a strong story to share, to reach out with that story because podcasts are only really, really good things to both host and to be on.

Jason: So, can you talk a little about your company, Pearl Lemon?

Deepak: We have been around for, October 2016 as a business, we were incorporated. So that would bring us up to maybe, coming up to the two and a half year mark. We are 12 to 15 people now. I say 12 to 15 because there's some people that work, that contract with us on a part-time basis. There's people that kind of we hire and then reach out for. So we're 12 to 15, we're two and a half years old. Our specialism is search engine optimization, basically ranking on Google. The final thing that I'd say is, I'm a geek, dude. I love the technical components of ranking on Google. I love the way that it plays all together. I also love and enjoy the fact that people say, "Oh, how can you really measure SEO?" I see it as a wonderful challenge and like yourself and I'm sure many of the listeners, I like hard things, and that's kind of why I do what I do and where we're at.

Jason: So, on your bio, tell them a little bit about SEMRush. Can you talk about some of the tools you use?

Deepak: YSEMRush is the central tool I'd say, in terms of our SEO toolkit. It's the first place I'd go to if cavnessHR approached me as a business and said, "Hey, you know, we're looking to increase our rankings for the key phrase maybe best new podcasts 2019." Then I would plug your website initially into SEMRush to have a look at the organic keywords, the organic traffic, the growth. I would also pull an audit from SEMRush. Then in parallel, this is the other thing that we do, is I want to pull reports from multiple software. So I've also bought, for example, lifetime deals for other software and I will run basically benchmarking from SEMRush against a couple of other tools. Those tools are, Serv Stat, SE Ranking, AcuRancor, they're all SEO audit keyword ranking tools. So I'll pull multiple audits at the same time to see kind of what's missing and then in terms of rank tracking,. We'll use Nightwatch, which is really a rank tracking tool that I just fell into. I got emotionally connected to it. Maybe there's better out there, but I like it. It does a job and it's good. Then finally we use Ahrefs to look at your back link profile, your quality of domain. They're the primary tools I'd say amongst the others that I may dip in and out of along the way.

Jason: Are you just a London focused company or England, European?

Deepak: So, I'm the founder, I'm based in London. There's three of us here in London. But the company is internationally focused. I would say we've got a western leaning. What I mean by that is we work with English language websites. We've done some work with international language websites. But the companies that we work with who can be, I don't know, Austria, Israel, Canada, the US, obviously the UK. All of them have a singular component that they're focusing and targeting upon the UK, the US, or the Canadian audience. But generally, English language speaking, and the team correspondingly, cause I said three of course in London, the other nine to 12 are in different countries. There's an India office, there are the content and project managers are in the states, New York and Maryland.

Jason: So, you basically have a remote company then, right?

Deepak: Exactly. So, we have some face to face but it's here. Which were the people you saw just before we got on the call. But generally speaking, to be honest with you, dude, I've not met most of the people that I work with.

Jason: Yeah, I definitely think remote is the way to go cause my take is like if everyone was working in London, I mean you're missing all that talent across everywhere else, so why do that to yourself?

Deepak: Exactly. I agree. With recruiting, I really just want to discover where the talent is and there are golden nuggets and amazing people everywhere. That's what the beauty of being or working remotely really gives you.

Jason: So I know recently, in Europe, ydata privacy has been a big thing. I think it's called GDPR. I don't know what it stands for, but how has that affected your business?

Deepak: I'm trying to remember the acronym. GDPR, general, data, public, policy risk or something. It has caused a lot of scares. But the reality is that for my business personally. It has had little impact because we are SEO focused. However, I have launched a second agency recently that focuses on lead generation. So email marketing and what's been interesting is overcoming the objection or the fear. Can I email people that I don't know, Deepak? So there's that objection that's new in people's minds. The reality is that everybody's always messaging someone they don't know at some point in the journey because that's just how you grow. Whether it's personally or professionally and the way it has affected, I think some businesses is, I think, Jason, listen, I think it has been positive. If you've got an inactive email list, then you don't need them any way. They're not opening up your emails then it doesn't matter. It got rid of the vanity list, I think, that a lot of businesses had and there was this perception of we've just lost a database of 2.3 million people. So, I think that there's been a lot of kind of scares and hypes,. But the reality is, is businesses will recover from these risks or you know, worries that they've had and we continued and we move forward.

Jason: How has Brexit affecting your business? I know that's been in the news lately too.

Deepak: Definitely. You see a lot of, there has been like relocation of businesses has been a big thing. Like a lot of the kind of talent in terms of banks have moved over to Europe or they've moved to Ireland in some cases. So, that's been one thing. The second thing is that that means a lot of talent has followed because they're not sure of the future that they'll have from an economic standpoint. So you've seen a lot of international talent that has left London. From a kind of personal standpoint, my partner, she's Italian and you know she's had some worries because she's an Italian native as to my right to work, my ability to build a business here. So it has been an emotional kind of cost in terms of people's worries about their future here. Which then impacts of course markets and the way that people do business and how people invest when it comes to hiring. I guess the final thing is that the net effect has been a lot of worry and all those kind of conversations and you do see kind of levels of business probably bigger than myself. There has been an impact that's been felt. I have not personally been exposed to it beyond those points I've mentioned.

Jason: Who is your target customer? A certain amount of revenue coming in? Or how's that work for you?

Deepak: I really enjoy working with businesses who do understand what SEO is, number one. I also love working with companies who are in the eCommerce space. We do more and more stuff in the eCommerce space. Why does that happen? I think that, number three, a lot of my clients end up being a reflection of me. I'm 32 right now. I've got a lot of either whether it's the business development manager or the marketing director or maybe the founder, depending upon the size and shape of the company. I've got a lot of clients who are a similar age to me. eCommerce seems to be a very popular thing. So if I was to pick one, I'd say eCommerce. If I was to say, what does our actual client makeup look like today? We've also got businesses that have nothing ... We've got loft conversion companies, we've got demand generation businesses. We've taken on an email data protection business. So it's very much wider and across the range. But I would say that eCommerce business is a space where we're getting really robust results and I enjoy the speed of eCommerce.

Jason: So, next, two part question, number one, as you know there's a lot of people doing what you're doing. The first part, a small business owner, why should I even go to an agency? Why can't they do it themselves? And two, how do you recommend them pick an agency that's right for them?

Deepak: I think that really it's just a question of practicality with why not do it yourself. I advocate people doing as much as they can for themselves, but there's an expression that I want to share with your audience and you Jason, that I've come to recognize as being very, very true when it comes to where you want to move with your life and success. The quote is that if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. For me that is probably the most important thing when it comes to deciding whether to hire talented, whether it's staff or agencies. To help you on your mission of whatever level of domination is going to be the busiest cafe on your high street. Then all credit to you, sir. I'd love to help you with that journey. If you want to be a cafe that opens up locations across the UK, all credit to you mister business owner, I would love to help you on that journey.

Deepak: So, I think that that's why it makes sense depending upon what you want to achieve to get a third party involved. Then when it comes to choosing agencies, the cultural fit is maybe the number one aspect for me. I think that you've got to enjoy doing business with the people you do business with. Otherwise, there will be such an emotional debt that will come from them not quite responding to emails as quickly as you like or the data being presented in a way that you don't understand. Or getting on a call and finding the person a little bit prickly or not feeling confident about referring or recommending them. Because there's a cultural mismatch or not understanding because of poor communication or improper communication. I think that's a significant component for me as to how people should look and view an agency outside of usual checks, which is case studies, client testimonials. Are you eating your own medicine?

Deepak: Are you doing SEO for yourself? Are you anywhere to be seen? This is a big thing for me. I wouldn't ever work with an agency who doesn't do SEO for themselves and there's a big amount of them that don't do SEO for themselves. And that speaks to me of an improper structure internally and improper processes. So there's lots of kinds of cheese I would pick at. But then assuming you've done all of those checks, the biggest thing then comes down to me is what about our culture? Are you going to get along with me Jason? Are you going to find me annoying as hell? I definitely say do not work with me, you will not enjoy it and there's great people out there who you will enjoy working with.

Jason: How do you work through this? You're on a new customer and we'll say a month later like, "Hey Deepak, we're not number one yet. What's going on here?" How do you do that?

Deepak: Absolutely, let's do role play. If it was you, Jason, you said, "Deepak, you came on our podcast. I was like really impressed by how you approached things. I want to work with you on SEO." We signed the deal off. 30 days later I get a call from you, "Dude. We've not ranked number one on Google yet. Like what's the deal?" I'd say, "Jason, I totally understand where you're coming from. Don't worry. This is literally completely normal. This is a marathon that we're in. Whilst we're not number one right now on Google, here's what I can show you as to the work that we're doing right now to get you there. These are the results that we currently have got to date." If the results yet aren't positive, then I'll say, "Jason, we're totally aware of this.

Deepak: The truth is is that what typically works is not working and that's okay because I've seen that happen before as well. When I've done all of the things that I think will work and then it's still not working. But I always build fail safes into every plan. All you need to know is I'm committed to your project, sir, because I really want to still work with you in six months. The only way that happens Jason, is if I do get you to number one. So please have faith. Please stick with me. Know that this will take some time, but you will be really happy that you stuck with us.'

Jason: I bet you get that question a lot, don't you? Where people are just being impatient, does not know how long the process is.

Deepak: People will say they understand and then you discover down the line that what they think or what they said as understanding is completely different. There's also lots of nuances that really only come out as a consequence of working with people and you know, we have clients that want daily reporting. We have clients that look at a link and because it isn't pretty and isn't set up like a beautiful piece on Forbes that this link looks spammy because it isn't as pretty as the Forbes. Then we have people that say, well, you know, I can go and build a link myself. We have all manners of objection and you know what? I'm not even complaining. It's completely normal. Whenever is it a walk in the park and any, I think, business owner that has an expectation their client is going to be like a walk in the park.

Deepak: I think that it's really not reflective of what a business that's growing rapidly looks like. It can be a consequence of you choosing and picking your clients. But of course I'm speaking about different things. But yeah, you're right, I get objections and what you really want to do is get to a place where you can answer every objection imaginable. Because then there'll be nothing that can surprise you. That's the space that we want to get to, which is actually why I really value objections. Because I learn more about how to satisfy someone as a consequence of them kicking up a fuss. I'm like, brilliant. How can I fix this so it doesn't happen again?

Jason: So Deepak, we all know that every customer is not a good customer. How do you go about disqualifying people?

Deepak: So, I guess the obvious thing of course is budget. People do ask me and I tell them. They say, "Deepak, how much do you cost?" So right now, for example, we cost from $2,500 up to $10,000. There was a time where we used to cost $500 a month. Why? I was at my mom's house and I wanted to just make my rent. I bent my back over and it was related to those components. Now we're just way better because you learn, you grow, you understand. But I think the number one is cost, price, wherever you want to call it. Then number two is expectation. "Deepak, we want to rank number one next week." Then number three is also in budget over time. So, there's budget up front, but then there's also budget over time. So, a lot of people be like, we charge $100 a month and you're like, great. I'd say, can you commit to $100 a month for a least six months in a manner that's not going to have you looking over your shoulder every three days? Because if that's what taking $100 from your pocket does to you, sir, then we're probably not a good fit for each other. That's something that I think sometimes gets lost, that people don't think about. Well, what if by month three you've not got the commercial result? People need to have enough budget to last comfortably for six months.

Deepak: Then, budget, budget over time, expectation, level of reporting, and then maybe business area. Oh and then also maybe the CMS. If you have everything in custom code, we still work with those people. But sometimes we find that the development process is a nightmare. The cause a lot of internal developers don't want to be given instruction from an external SEO team. That's something that's been a new discovery of me recently that, if a guy's technical, he doesn't like being told by an outsider who's not really technical. But you're not a real doctor, you're a PhD. That's not a real doctor. That has come into play. This is the consequence of also learning and also learning about what you can do and what you can't do that well. And then also where else to disqualify in the future.

Jason: So, changing the subject a little bit. I want to talk about your tattoos a little bit. So you have 40% your body covered tattoos. Can you talk about the process of how you go to like picking a new tattoo or how that works for you?

Deepak: Dude, you know what? I began getting tattoos, my first tattoo, 18 years old. Chang Mai, northern Thailand. I was drunk in a bar and I bet my friend Michael whom I'd met in Delhi at the airport. We caught a bus all the way to Bangkok together, wound up in northern Thailand, 18 years old, back in 2004. I was like, "Dude." He was like, "What's up, mate?" I was like, "Dude, if you get your lip pierced here ..." Cause we talked about what we'd like. "I'll get a tattoo." We've got three beers in and then we were like, screw it What happened at that moment was there was a chap right next to me and he had an awesome beard, a little bit like you Jason. He had this really rocking beard. So he had a similar, but he had a ponytail. So then he was standing there at the bar in kind of a tank top and then he was clamping a mug, like a beer mug. I looked him across and he had like a scorpion tattoo on his hand. He had some my pincers where his forefinger and his thumb was. I was like, "Dude, that looks so cool as a tattoo on your hand." 20 minutes later I was on my back getting my first tattoo in Thailand at 18 years old, headed off to the jungle a day later. That was my first tattoo and that was actually the sign for my family's religion, Hinduism, om. It was the om sign. Since then I did always try and get tattoos that had some bearing upon a life experience. So whether that was the marathons that had ran, whether that was someone who touched my life. Whether that was the cities I've been to, whether that was my heritage, my kind of ethnic heritage and cultural heritage. But then I ran out of ideas and I started doing stuff like getting Wolverine tattoos cause I was like, well why not?

Jason: So next question. So, you do a lot every day. Can you tell us how many hours of sleep you get per day?

Deepak: Yeah, sure. So I get maybe, it can be as little as four, it can go up to about seven. I have always catnapped. So, I wake up very often during the night. I say very often, to give that a number. I probably in a six hour stretch will wake up two times maybe. So 2.3, 2.4 maybe because sometimes it will be two, sometimes it'll be three. I rarely go through the night and don't sleep or rather, you know, without waking up, sorry. Something between four to seven. I don't remember sleeping an eight hour day. I don't know really if I sleep seven hours. But yeah, between four to seven I think is probably fair estimation.

Jason: I asked the question cause looking at your Linkedin profile, you're like man, does this guy even sleep? But I think just for example, yes, you can do everything. You just have to have time management skills and having a process to your day. I think that's a good example of that.

Deepak: I think so dude, I think that if people take actions and increase the throughput. Which means how many actions and how many decisions can you make in a minute and realizing there's some decisions, most decisions we don't need to dwell upon and most people lose time dwelling. They think and they consider and they ponder and I'm like, "Dude, just do it." He's like, "Oh, but this one's slightly cheaper." I was like, "Dude, it's five pound difference. Who Cares? Just do it. Doesn't matter. We're arguing over a five pound difference. Trying to get 1500 pound result. Why are you even debating the mechanics of something?" That is a typical space where people look for the potential fear of loss and we lose sight. We lose sight of the bigger picture. The bigger picture is the big goal. Stop at nothing.

Jason: Next, can you tell me about a time you were successful in the past where you learned from this and what we can learn?

Deepak: I think it was when I was 20 in fact, and I went to my first self development conference and I even forget the chap's name. It was Australian and it was the first time I'd gone to a self development type of weekend. One of the things that kind of struck me was this notion of when you do things, even if you're only doing it for a moment, give 110% to the things that you do. Be present with whatever it is that you're doing. Even if it's just for a minute, even if it's just for a moment, even if it's for a 45 minute podcast in the middle of your day. Be present when you're talking to Jason. Be involved and be engaged. That moment led me to realizing that when I was going for my Sunday morning runs. I wasn't playing it at the level that I thought really I was capable of. Also that reflected, you know, what was possible. So what I did literally on the last day of that conference was I whacked out my new brand spanking credit card at 20 that had my student debt just waiting to stack up and I booked, Jason, marathon in Chicago. My first ever marathon. Now at the age of 20, I had never run a marathon before. The furthest I'd run was seven kilometers and I was based in London. I never been to the states. It made no bloody sense to go to Chicago. But I booked my return flights to Chicago. I booked my marathon entry. I organized a hotel to stay with me and my girlfriend at the time. I told everybody on Facebook and I had like a 1,200 pound bill, $1,500 bill and I was like, Jesus Christ, that's a lot of money when you're 20 years old. But what that set in motion, taking the act, taking that big irrational step. "Deepak, he could have done a marathon down your road. You can have done training outside your house. You don't need to go to Chicago." That decision was the decision that led me to doing the 25 marathons I've done today, the ultra marathons, the iron men, entering the military, doing all of that. It's come as a consequence of taking that big kind of irrational step that we fear because then you discover what's on the other side. So I think, I guess what I'm trying to say to summarize is that in those moments of madness, when you think. "Oh, maybe I should see this coach, maybe I shouldn't. Oh, it's a lot of money." Don't worry about the money. It doesn't matter if you spend $5,000 on the coach and you don't get a result. Because you will always get a result because the result comes as a consequence of the fact that you made that decision and that you've got on that journey and you might see the return that's visible to the world in five years from now. But trust yourself and trust me when I tell you, you've already begun the journey, brother, you've done a wonderful thing.

Jason: So follow up question. Now, tell me about a time you failed in the past, what you learned from this failure and what we can learn from this.

Deepak: I entered the British army with an idea that I had applied to the special forces. In the UK they're called the Special Air Services, the SAS. I went on that journey because I thought it would be a kind of cool thing to do and an interesting thing to tell the world. At that time I was 27 and I went on this weird and wonderful journey that lasted ultimately 18 months probably end to end. That led me to withdrawing from the process and I mean I failed in my endeavor I guess to pursue that adventure. What I really kind of failed to recognize is when you do things based upon a perception that you want others to have of you and not doing something because of your love for doing it. Then you will invariably at some point fail. I made that decision really badly because what was clear was I did not enjoy the process and it was the wrong time in my life at 27 and that was not what was going to be my future. I think that it was a big failing to tell everybody, "Oh, you know, I decided to withdraw." People are like, "Oh wow. Why? I want to tell people this great story about you and it sounds so cool and I can tell my friends at the pub." My reality was I was dreading going away cause I was like, "Man, I'm going to be told to eat S-H-I-T, to clean toilets and to give up my autonomy. To give up my freedom of time." That was the biggest thing that disrupted the whole process for me. The physical I enjoyed, the technical components I enjoyed, but the lack of ability to do anything else outside of that, was something that troubled me. So I think that, you know, we should always also question sometimes why it is we make the decisions that we make. Certainly when you get into something that has huge responsibility, it's important, not to not get into it, but to recognize that, "Hey, I'm not enjoying the process. What am I going to get out of this? Am I doing it for me or am I doing it for someone else's perception of me?" If you're doing it for someone else's perception of you, then you're not going to end in the place of true success. I think because those that succeed in anything in life, they do enjoy large parts of the process because it's the process that will make you successful. Not standing on top of the mountain. So, the training that you put in the gym at 7:00 AM on a Saturday morning when your friends are hung over still in bed and you're there putting in the hours and no one cares about your Instagram chat that you pull on there. Those are the guys that win and you've got to find whatever your 7:00 AM Saturday morning version in your life is that will lead you to that place of success.

Jason: Deepak, I understand you've got something for our listeners.

Deepak: Yes, so if you are a fan or do want to do SEO yourself. Have a course that I'm happy to give any of those who sign up through Jason's link free access. The cost costs a couple of hundred dollars. It's really focused upon the what I call ghetto version of SEO. If you want to do things that will move the needle. That aren't technically driven, that don't require any outside help, that you could do. Then this is a course that would make sense for you. It's a couple of hundred dollars, with Jason's link, you can have it for free.

Jason: Deepak, can you share your social media links for yourself and your company so people can reach out to you?

Deepak: Definitely. So if you are interested in finding out more about my story, then head to DeepakShukla.com.You'll probably see a link beneath this video or podcast or wherever you find it. But you can also Google me, Deepak Shukla. Then also my company is called Pearl Lemon, pearl like a pearl necklace. Then second word lemon. So you could Google either of those two. Deepak Shukla, Pearl Lemon, and guys there are a bunch of links, pick whatever takes your fancy.

Jason: For this show, we will have all the links in our show notes and you can find the show notes at www.cavnesshrblog.com. Deepak we're coming to the end of our talk, can you fly any wisdom or advice on any subject you want to talk about?

Deepak: Commit to a path of excellence in whatever you do. I feel you when I recognize that's easier said than done and it takes a lot of commitment and sacrifice. But if you pursue excellence in any endeavor, no matter how long or short you're doing it for. I do believe that good things will come back to you.

Jason: Deepak, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it. You have a lot going on, so thank you very much.

Deepak: Jason, Thank you dude. I appreciated your time as well.

Jason: Listeners, thank you as well. Remember to be great every day.

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cavnessHR delivers HR to companies with 49 or less employees while transforming the HR consulting industry.

Be Great Every Day!

March 10, 2019

The cavnessHR podcast – A talk with Deepak Shukla of Pearl Lemon

Jason Cavness

CEO/Founder at CavnessHR. We do HR for companies with 49 or fewer people. I host of The Jason Cavness Experience. This is an in person long form live streamed video podcast. Retired U.S. Army Officer. ΦΒΣ

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