Cash Value & Key Person Life Insurance

In today's episode, we sat down with Casey Dahl to talk about an insurance product that is gaining popularity among business owners. We give an overview of the product, how it works for individuals, and how you can implement this through your business as key person insurance.

Index universal life insurance, or IUL, is a type of permanent life insurance that provides both a death benefit and a cash value component. It differs from traditional universal life insurance in that the cash value is linked to an equity index, such as the S&P 500, instead of a fixed interest rate. This means that the policyholder can potentially earn higher returns on their cash value. The cash value can be accessed through withdrawals or loans. If managed correctly, the cash value can provide tax-free income in retirement or be used to fund large purchases, investments, or in emergencies.

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Read Transcript Here:

Michael: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Mike LeJeune here with Game Changers for Government Contractors, and I have a very special guest on here with me today. This is actually somebody that I work with,?her name is Casey. Casey, why don't you hop on and tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Casey: Thanks Michael. Hi everybody. My name is Casey. Michael found me on TikTok.?I happen to have over a hundred thousand followers on TikTok talking about life insurance, which is a little crazy. I live out in California. I own an insurance agency now at this point, and have a team of five. We've been in business for a few years. We mainly focus on cash value life insurance, which Michael actually has one of these policies with me and I believe we'll be talking about that today.

Michael: As you said there, I am a client of yours, Casey, and I found you on TikTok. You know, I probably watched your videos for probably a year before I reached out to you. I was like oh, she's got too much going on to take my call, right? I'd watched it and every time I saw something from you, it educated me on something a little bit [00:01:00] different and it just kept intriguing me.

I'll kind of set the stage for some of our clients. I started the retirement process kind of late in life. Early on I was investing in our business, doing all kind of things, was not putting money away. And then I woke up one day and was like, gosh, I'm in my mid-forties. Retirement's coming like a freight train. And what am I going to do? And looking at a traditional 401k and all that, I could put all the money in there that I can and it's never going to get me where I want to go. And so I started looking for alternatives. This was one of the things where I'm like, this actually kills a lot of birds with one stone looking at this. Because if something should happen to my wife or I, there's protection there. When we get to retirement, there's protection there. I was just really intrigued by this whole thing. And so I reached out to you and you hopped on a call. You were awesome with kind of going through what it means, how it works, all that kind of stuff, and looking at us individually.

?So it is kind of like a free infomercial here, a little bit, on working with Casey. But I was just so impressed with what you did for us. I wanted to make sure you came on. ?I [00:02:00] was talking to a client the other day and they said Hey, you know, we're starting out kind of late in life. And I was like, wow, this sounds familiar. You need to reach out to Casey because I think this is a good opportunity. And then just light bulb. I bet there's a lot of our clients that have similar challenges. And there are a lot of business owners and there's just a lot of need for different instruments in their life. Why don't we start here, with letting you tell us a little bit about what is cash value life insurance? Let's talk about that one a little bit.

Casey: Yeah. it's also very typical for people to find me for a year and wait to reach out, which is really funny that I said that.

Michael: frustrating

Casey: I mean, everyone's on their own time constraints and thinking, I'll be ready soon. I'll be ready soon. I'll make it happen. A few months go by, it's a year later. Cash value life insurance: it's a permanent life insurance policy. Starting there, I mean, it will last you the rest of your life. What happens with certain cash value life insurance policies, particularly the IUL, is called an indexed universal life insurance policy, which is what Michael, you and your wife have.

An [00:03:00] IUL is a cash value policy specifically that tracks the growth of the economy or certain market indexes like the S&P 500. So in a way, it is kind of like an investment, but it's absolutely not an investment. You contribute money to it, and as you're contributing money, we get to earn interest based on the S&P 500. But the perk of the cash value policy is that there's a 0% floor. So, just like 2008 happens: negative 38% crash in your 401k, in your IRA. IUL saw a 0% return. If you had a hundred grand in your IUL, in your cash value life insurance policy in 2008, you didn't lose a penny. A penny. Some people even earned money when the economy crashed because of having their money in cash value life insurance.

Now the growth of the policy, sometimes there are caps on it, right? We get this benefit of not losing, that sometimes they say, Hey, you can only earn 10%. I don't know about you, but I'll take 10%?

Michael: Yeah. [00:04:00] Guaranteed, right?

Casey: Guaranteed. But so otherwise, for example, if you were paying $500 a month into your cash value life insurance policy, that is all that you're paying. If there is not a cost to get the policy, you don't pay extra expenses on top of what you're contributing monthly. So if you're paying 500 bucks, a portion of that money each month pays for the cost of the policy. Because, starting day one, you had a death benefit over your head that if you passed away, your wife would get it, your loved ones would get it.

So immediately there is something that you're paying for, that you purchased. But if the policy's set up correctly, which this is a big part of it (which I'm sure we'll probably have to touch on, is policy design is key to having success when purchasing a policy and contributing to it). What I was saying was just that $500 a month you pay that it covers the cost.

The rest of it, if it is set up correctly, is sitting in your cash value. And it's liquid, and you can borrow it or withdraw it. It is completely accessible to you. It does not get locked up, and that's huge. I think I've already named three different [00:05:00] things that are huge about the IUL and I didn't even mean to!

Michael: Yeah. Those are all awesome. And, what attracted me to it, I had heard of, I'm going to throw this concept out there, the infinite banking type of concept.?That's been really popular, at least in my world, for at least 15 years. Where I've been hearing about this over and over and over again and didn't know a lot about it, didn't really understand it. The sources I’d come across didn't really explain it well. It was attractive, but I couldn't grasp it, you know?

Casey: Yeah.

Michael: But I've always heard my whole life, the rich, like the mega-wealthy, you know, the Warren Buffetts and those people like that, use life insurance as investments to do different things. They borrow money from themselves against their policies. You hear all these things and you're like, is that even legal? How does that work? There's so many things that are just not, I would put it as accessible, to the common person because we don't have the education on it. If you look at America, the one thing we don't educate people on, I guess it's because it all wants to go to Washington, right, is we don't teach people anything [00:06:00] about finance, anything about taxes. We just keep them in the dark as much as possible. And so,

Casey: yeah,

Michael: for me, this is one of those things where I'm like, I want people to understand the power of this. And not only in your individual life, but the way we did it was we set it up as key person insurance through our business.?

Casey: yes

Michael: I don't know about you, but like for me, I think I just put a post today on LinkedIn that said one of my biggest financial lessons over the last two years was to stop asking my accountant CAN I? and to start asking them how do I? Because if you ask

Casey: smart

Michael: can I, it's always no, you can't do that. You can't deduct that. When you say, how do I deduct that trip to Alaska? They're like, well, you have to have these things in place and this documentation. Ah, so it can be done if you know the rules. And this is more one of those things where you know the rules and how to set this up. Maybe you can talk a little bit about what the key person insurance is and then we can go back into setting up the IUL.

Casey: Absolutely. Key person insurance would have all of the things that I was mentioning before. It is a cash [00:07:00] value life insurance policy, can be an IUL. Basically your business owns a policy. It purchases it for you. It pays for it. And then you as the key person in your business, or somebody else as the key person in their business, is the insured. And so now the business owns an asset on a key person within the company. There are a lot of things, directions we could go, right? Let's say that you wanted to sell your business in the future. You have a key person policy. Well, now you have a bargaining chip to get a higher sale price for your business. What could happen as part of the sale is that that new business owner might have to pay you out of the cash value for a period of time.

Could be the rest of your life, just depending on the size of that asset, because that was your money from when you had the business. It also is considered a cost to your business. You own the business. Your business owns the policy. And now, that policy becomes a cost to your business, right? It's not a tax deduction if you're the business owner and the insured, because the IRS [00:08:00] is going to say whoa, too many tax advantages on the front and the backend. However, it's still a cost to your business. So it ends up on your profits and losses sheet and saying Hey, you're spending this extra money over here. You can now have extra liabilities, right? And we love that as business owners. Yeah, we love that.

Michael: Yeah. Well even on our side, I think our accountant was a little, not shocked, but he was like, Mike, you made more money this year, but you're paying a lot less in taxes. And I'm like, it's because I got smarter about the tax code this year and what should be running through the business. So like the average person would just say, oh, well I'm going to get a life insurance policy. So in my after-tax money, I'm going to go and do that. That's where you go wrong, right out of the gate.?It's like, let the business cover that. And do it this way.

You know, we have our own company. My wife and I are both the only employees on it. It's separate from our other business. We are the ones that are insured. We're the owners so something happens, we are the beneficiary. It's just a different way to do it. Again, taking your post-tax dollars and putting that money in, now the money you take home is less so it [00:09:00] doesn't touch our take home money because of the way we're doing it.

Casey: Well, and the longer you have that policy and the bigger the cash value grows inside there, you could end up before retirement even trying to supplement some of your income, your taxable income, with income from the policy so that you actually are netting less tax dollars, having to claim less money coming out. Right? I mean, even to the point of let's say just 10 grand a year coming from the cash value, instead of money coming to you as a salary or as income from the business, it's 10 grand less that you had to pay taxes on. I don't think we mentioned: when you take money from your policy, key person or not, that money is tax free. Because it's a loan, it's debt.

Which is exactly what they don't teach us in school, right? How to use debt, how to have good debt. And that's what cash value life insurance can provide for business owners. Ca, for anybody, but business owners are the ones that have this need saving money on taxes and to have a place they can pull money and go and fund [00:10:00] their business further without having to go to the bank and ask for a loan.

Michael: Right. And that's a great segue into the, you know, becoming your own bank. It's like, if you've got enough cash, and let's say you do want to buy that rental property, you do want to buy a second home in Florida, or whatever it is, and you've got enough money for the down payment or maybe the whole thing, you can go borrow it from yourself instead of paying the bank. And now, you haven't gone through the craziness of all of the fees and stuff like that, that come with buying money from a bank. Because that's what you're doing. You're buying money, you're paying a fee to get the money.

And this way, you're actually doing it for yourself. The thing I like about the loan side is, it's a loan you don't have to pay back. So like when you get into retirement, you take that out every year. Like you said, it's tax free because it's a loan. You don't have to pay it back because you're the bank.

Casey: You're the bank

Michael: It's just a much more flexible way to do it. You know, one of the things I will say here for all of the 401k fans is, you know, I've watched my brother-in-law and sister with their 401k.?The thing with 401 is you're like, you have to be in for 40 years, 50 years, right? Which [00:11:00] is a long freaking time to start with, right? But I've watched theirs, who they've been doing this for decades. They've lived through multiple financial crisis now. If we roll back what is in theirs now, it's not a lot more than what they put in. Because they've suffered, I think three massive downturns in the last 20 years.

Casey: Yeah.

Michael: And so for them, I'm looking at it, well, this may not work. I know what my guy at Edward Jones says, you know, he's like, if you stay in for the 40 years…. I'm like, well, I don't have 40 years. That's number one. But number two, even if I did, I don't know that you can claim that anymore. And what scares me about that is I just don't know that it worked that way. At least it hasn't worked that way for my sister, my brother-in-law. It's just one of those things where I'm like, it's just not the right solution for us. You know, we want something that given, how fragile the economy is, we wanted something that like, hey, even if we continue to put money in the 401k, we have something to balance it.

Casey: Yes

Michael: that [00:12:00] is not going to lose its value. Because I had looked at my statement last year, my Edward Jones statement, which I love the ED guys over there, but I looked at it and like negative 17%. And I was like, oh, this hurts. Right?

Casey: It hurts.

Michael: Do you put money into that? Or you just put it into this? But just having something to balance it is a pretty big deal.

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Michael: So what have we missed so far in whether it's how the IUL [00:13:00] works or becoming your own bank? What are some points that we haven't talked about?

Casey: We could go over the tax codes, right? Because we keep saying it's tax advantage.

Michael: Let's do that. Yeah.

Casey: Cash value life insurance has certain tax advantages if it's a genuine life insurance policy. Now, a genuine life insurance policy just has specific funding limitations which is a very clear reason why it's not an investment. An investment doesn't say Hey, you can't put 20 grand in at one time. You can do that. You can do whatever you want with your investment. Your IUL is going to say Hey, you have limitations.

Maybe you can only put up to 10,000 per year. However you want the limitations to be, you get to decide them. But once they're decided, they're set in stone. So now a genuine life insurance policy stays within those guidelines and it's allowed to be tax advantaged thanks to the Internal Revenue Code. And there are three different tax codes that are pertaining specifically to life insurance.

The first one is 101A and 101A says that the death [00:14:00] benefit of a life insurance policy transfers to a beneficiary tax free. And that's it. That's the most simple one, right? It's tax free death benefit to beneficiary. Perfect.

?The second one is 72E. 72E says that as your policy earns interest and grows, it's in a tax shelter. The cash value life insurance policy shelters the growth and your money grows tax free thanks to tax code section 72E. So every year inside your IUL, you earn interest. That interest is going to be earned free and clear of taxes. You are not going to claim on your tax returns.

Number three is 7702.?7702 is going to be our favorite because it says that you can access the money inside your policy tax free. Because you can pull it out in the form of a loan thanks to the policy loan provision, which is inside your cash value life insurance contract. So, the wealth, the generational wealth is tax free.

The growth is [00:15:00] tax free, and then the access tax free. Genuine life insurance policies only. So it's not like we've just decided that they're tax free or we're taking debt. The tax code says this for us. So all we have to do is learn the tax code, just like you said. You learn the tax code, you take advantage of it and VOILA there's thousands of extra dollars in your pocket.

Michael: Right,

Casey: And it was just sitting there this whole time.?

Michael: You know, I was watching this tax webinar this week. That's been my kick the last year is learning more about it. And this woman was going through and she was like, can you buy guns and write those off? And she's like, yeah, you can, depending on what you do and how you do it. Falls under security. And this person travels a lot and they're on the road. They're in their RV. Hey, the RV was a write off.

You need a guard dog? You can write that off. I think you can amortize the dog either over seven years or all up front. Uh, there's a couple of different options on the dog: it's training, it's food, it's vet bills. It can't be a pet. You can't take your Labradoodle and go, Hey, this is a guard dog. It needs to be a guard dog breed. It needs to go through some training. [00:16:00] Right?

But, all of that can come off. There's just so many things that like. When you learn the code, you're like, you can write that off. Even, you know, people not understanding the, we call them the WORKCATIONS, right? Where, you are like Hey, we are going to Hawaii for a business retreat. But you only have to work the four hours a day. You also get the day on the front and the back for travel. You get the weekends. So you know, you want to start something where you're like Hey, we're showing up on Thursday, we're working on Friday, and the weekends are ours, you know, and it's covering food and expenses and all kind of things.

There's just so many little things like that that some people will be like, well, that's got to be illegal. And look it up. It's right in there. Look it up. There's rules and there's documentation that you have to have like you were saying. To me, the most important thing is understanding how it's set up

Casey: Yes.

Michael: and what those rules are around that. And I know when we came to you, we were thinking around, hey, this is a number we have in mind that we want to make sure supplements social security, that supplements our 401: what's the number that we have to contribute in order to [00:17:00] get to that over 20 years?

And that's how we came up with our numbers. And then you did the magic behind the scenes on the setting it up and pages of documents that go with it.

Casey: And I think people always think or have this perception that with life insurance, the amount of money you contribute is always going to go up every single year. Is that true, Michael?

Michael: Nope

Casey: It's not! It's fixed because of those guidelines I was mentioning. When you tell me I want to be able to put $500 a month, six grand a year, and I don't want to pay anymore, then I will set the policy up so that you can't. You physically cannot pay anymore. Still, I get these questions all the time. Well, not so much questions, more like you're lying. Premiums go up. I they swear they don't. It takes seeing it to believe it, I think for people. Yeah. Because the stereotype of life insurance is it's going to go up and up and up and up. It won't stop.

Michael: I've got two contracts that show exactly what my premium is the entire time. I will say the one thing (my wife brags about this is she was like, I'm healthier than you) [00:18:00] was when we were starting out the design of the policy, we had it designed a certain way. Then I had to go through the medical thing. I've got issues and she doesn't, and she didn't even have to go through a medical eval. She eased right through it. I had to do the medical eval because of a couple of things and it changed how the design of the policy was going to be. But once it was changed, it was locked in. You approve it or don't and then it was done. It was very straightforward. It was a very simple process that I clearly am an advocate for, because I can't stop talking about it.

Casey: Michael, I think we spent what, 3 or 4 hour-long zooms together before we did anything

Michael: Yeah

Casey: and kept redoing numbers, re-strategizing. Is this going to make sense? Especially because we have a team here, husband and wife.?They're a team. We have to make sure both the policies work well together. If we just focus on Michael and then, you know, your wife was an afterthought, we'd be doing a disservice to your financial future.

Michael: Yeah

Casey: So it had to be this strategy of putting them together. And it's funny because yeah, Rachel didn't have to do an exam and you guys are in your forties. I had to do an exam and [00:19:00] I'm late twenties. It's all over the place. You never know who's going to have to do a medical. But once we get to that point, it is very quick. It painless. The paperwork is not so bad.

I would say the most difficult part is trying to understand what the heck we're talking about. What's going on here? What are we looking at? And then the strategy, which is where I have the most fun.

Michael: Yeah

Casey: I have the most fun trying to figure out what we're going to do here. Because you guys had these moments too, where like we started off with lots of questions, lots of answers, going back over things and then I just watched light bulbs go off. Just like, ah, I get it. Oh my gosh, it's making sense. Oh, okay, I see it. I can see the value. Wow.

Michael: Yep.

Casey: ?It's so awesome to get to do that part of it. Beforehand, because it sounds really nice and exciting and you're intrigued, and then you're like, but is it really?

Michael: Yeah.

Casey: ?Is it really? And then for it to be, is really cool.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, it's sometimes hard when you're dealing with a husband and wife and you have different perceptions. And you know, I've been watching you for a year and Rachel didn't know anything about it. And I'm like, Hey, you need to sit on this call [00:20:00] about insurance. And so it's like, yeah, this is the last thing I want to do with my life, you know?

And so to have her sit down and be like, oh, I love Casey and everything.?That was helpful too because we instantly went from me being an advocate to something to now we're both on it and being able to see the numbers and go: This makes sense.

For me it was, here's my goal: I want to, offset what the government is likely to do. I don't want to count on social security. I don't want to count on my 401k. I want to have options. And I want in the near term, so if we are five years in, 10 years in, and I'm looking to do some creative stuff, I don't want to have to go to a bank. I want to be able to do this through my own thing and not have any questions.

One thing we have not touched on that I've actually seen a little bit about: I have seen people get multiple policies. Is that something that you see people coming back doing? They have the one and then as you level up financially, you're like, maybe I want some more of that

Casey: Mm-hmm.

Michael: thing that seems to be doing well and circle [00:21:00] back and even get more policies for you.

Casey: Absolutely. Absolutely. The infinite banking concept actually includes this. 20 years ago they were talking about multiple policies to become your own bank. Not necessary, but you get really into this idea and one policy becomes your policy for your cars. One policy becomes the policy you use for real estate. One is for your kids' college tuition. One is for your retirement, and that way you're not dipping your own fingers into your retirement fund and your car fund all in one.?You're being able to save this is for retirement, I'm not touching this one.

And maybe we have a different funding structure for retirement? We do smaller, longer funding period compared to, hey, we want to build up cash to be able to buy real estate. Then we're going to fund this one heavy for the next five to 10 years to turn around and borrow from it.

Same thing with kids. Now you open kids policies, now you have each one on the kids. You know, at zero years old you can get a policy [00:22:00] for them. You fund that thing for 18 years, they're going to college with tax-free money. And you don't want to use that one to go finance cars.

?So this idea of having multiple is brilliant. I have clients right now starting with two, seeing how they feel. And the two: usually, one is for retirement. They do a smaller monthly premium, let's say $300 just to do a long-term fund. And then the next one, they're going to do a thousand bucks a month because in five years they want to turn around and they want to buy an investment. And so they get these two things going. And of course you have to be in a decent place financially to be doing something like this.

Which is why I have actually have two policies myself, but my two policies are an IUL and a term policy. My term policy is convertible into an IUL as soon as I'm ready to start another IUL. I keep a term policy, it's cheap, hundred grand of death benefit and I have it for 10 years.

So at any time within the next 10 years I decide I'm ready for another IUL, I flip it over and [00:23:00] transfer it into a permanent policy. No underwriting. So I basically have a tool in my back pocket waiting. This is what a lot of my younger guys especially are doing this, younger people. Kind of just getting prepared to have multiple in the future.

Michael: Yeah. I think it just makes so much sense and I appreciate how you talk about that. You know, it really depends on what the strategy is on how you would do it, whether you would heavily fund or whatever. Regardless of what you're doing financial, you need to have a strategy.

Casey: Yes.

Michael: Even if it's just your 401K, you have to understand and not just blindly put money into things. You need to know

Casey: yes

Michael: what your strategy is. Because most people think, my strategy is I put money into this thing. You also need a goal. So what is your goal? ?Now we need to look at the instrument, and then the strategy, then build all that stuff together. You know, your strategy's not your 401k.?This education the other day was, you know, it's not even an investment fund. It's the place you put it so you can. You'll move it around so you can buy things.

Casey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael: People think, well, I put it in the 401 and that's it. No, now you’ve got to buy stuff.

Casey: Yeah. [00:24:00] And the same thing with the Roth IRA. People are like, yeah, I put money in my Roth. I'm like, what'd you buy? What do you mean?

Michael: I don't know.

Casey: What do you mean? What I think too people miss out, the first strategy is diversify. That's your first strategy. If you haven't diversified yet, what can we even strategize about? If all of your money is here, in a 401k, what's the strategy? We need to get some money in another place. Because all eggs in one basket doesn't ever work out so well.

Michael: Yeah, and it hasn't for the last several years here in the United States. Any final thoughts for folks, people that are either thinking about doing this or education that you want to throw out, maybe dispel any rumors or anything like that?

Casey: I think the only thing we didn't touch on, which is a big one is: let's say Michael's had his policy for five years, and he's got 20 grand available. He wants to pull out $10,000 because he's going to expand the business. That 10,000, it's going to make you more money, right? You're pulling it out on purpose to generate more income. You're going to pull it out at year five at a 2.75% interest rate. [00:25:00] That's one thing we didn't mention is that there is interest attached to the loan. And if we're taking loans in the beginning years, we want to at least pay back the interest, which is minimal.

But let's say we pull out this 10 grand, 2.75% interest. Well now if you pay the loan back to yourself, because if you needed the 10 grand, no matter what, you would've gone and taken it from the bank and had to pay them back a lot more interest.

Michael: Mm-hmm

Casey: So if they have that expectation, you should have that own expectation for yourself, like you should pay yourself back. When you do and you pay yourself back that interest, the interest is added to the overall value of your policy and that money used to loan you the money, which I know is a very weird sentence.?But the interest dollars can earn interest while the loan is being taken out. So not only did you pay yourself back the interest, but the interest actually earned you more money.

Michael: More money

Casey: And now the value of your policy is higher than it ever would have been if you had not taken the loan.

Michael: Yeah. That's pretty wild.

Casey: And that is the be-your- [00:26:00] own-bank infinite banking concept right there. I do actually write out the numbers and the projections to show this if you want to see it. So it's not just an idea that we're talking about in our heads and trying to imagine. We can look at it real time, which I think is a game changer, considering.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. Nice little final little plug before we hop off here: by the time this airs, your podcast will be live. Tell everybody a little bit about your podcast that you have coming up.

Casey:?I am going to be hosting my own podcast. It's called, You Are An Asset.?And on the podcast we're going to find out who's an asset in the financial industry and who's just an ass. You can catch it live on Wednesdays at 1:00 PM on basically any platform that you get podcasts, Twitch, Spotify, Audibel, YouTube, you name it. All the links to the show are going to be on my TikTok and my Instagram, which is @Caseythedollar.

Michael: Awesome. Well I look forward to that. ?You were [00:27:00] talking about me being on there at some point.

Casey: Yes.

Michael: Hopefully I'll be in the first category instead of the second category.

Casey: 100%. 100%, yes.

Michael:Thank you for coming on today talking about this. As always, all of your contact information will be on our website for folks if you want to reach out to Casey.?If you've got questions and you want to reach out to me first, like I said, I know Casey because I'm a client. ?I really appreciated working with you and I appreciate you coming on the show today. So thank you.

Casey: Yeah, I really appreciate you having me. It's been an honor. Thank you.

Michael: I really hope you enjoyed the podcast today. If you did, I would really appreciate it if you would like and subscribe to the podcast and screenshot it and tag me on LinkedIn or whatever social media you use. So thank you again for joining us today, and we'll see you next time.