Behind the Scenes: Secret Shopping Our Own Website | Ep. 437
James Robert Lay
I help B2B entrepreneurs elevate their brand and expand their influence by unlocking their Unique Wisdom ?? 2X Best Selling Author ?? Top 5% Podcast ?? Global Keynote Speaker ??
After facilitating over 1200 website secret shopping studies for financial brands over the past decade, the Digital Growth Institute decided it was time to drink their own medicine. After recently launching their new website, they put out a call-to-action for industry leaders to provide real-time feedback.
In this episode of the Practical Perspectives series, James Robert Lay and Audrey Cannata discuss the insights they gained and how the practice of rapid iteration helped them to level up their brand messaging and communication. They discuss the lessons that they learned and how even the most seasoned marketers can find tremendous value in outside perspectives.
Join us as we discuss:
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00 Learning from mistakes: win or learn philosophy.
04:12 Underestimated secret shopping resulted in valuable feedback.
08:29 We clarified our messaging to be straightforward.
13:19 Optimized messaging after missing the mark initially.
16:55 Primary call to action was confusing, feedback provided.
19:27 Past arrogance changed to open-minded collaboration request.
21:06 I fought for homepage image, ultimately successful.
26:04 Advocate financial brands visualize customer journey for success.
28:56 Technology moves exponentially, minds think linearly. Communicate.
31:11 Optimizing words for better communication experience.
The expanded summary of this episode:
Episode Introduction
Secret Shopping Studies Introduction
Personal Insights and Reflections
Call to Action Adjustment
Website Secret Shopping and Feedback
Clarity in Communication
Leadership Experience
Balancing Vision and Audience Readiness
Methodology and Visual Communication
Linear vs. Cyclical Planning
Emotional Detachment and Open-mindedness
Rephrasing for Positivity
Service Offerings and Incentives
Key Lessons and Broader Implications
Full transcription of this episode:
James Robert Lay [00:00:08]:
Welcome to the show, Audrey. It is great to share time with you again. And in full transparency, this is actually take two of this episode here. We've never had to do this before.
Audrey Cannata [00:00:26]:
I don't know, close to 40 episodes, and we accidentally dropped the ball on this one.
James Robert Lay [00:00:33]:
What? And it's. We learn from it.
Audrey Cannata [00:00:36]:
And total accident, though.
James Robert Lay [00:00:37]:
Total accident. We learn from it. But just like, that's. And that's a great segue for today's episode and our conversation that we're having for the second time because we are learning a lot from the website, secret shopping studies that you're facilitating on the digital Growth Institute website. And before we get too far into what you're learning, what you're seeing, what you're hearing, what is going well for you, what is positive in your world right now, personally, professionally, does your pick to get started?
Audrey Cannata [00:01:06]:
You know, I would just say, and this might sound cliche, but it is the changing of the seasons. When you live in Texas, you really appreciate that first taste of fall.
James Robert Lay [00:01:22]:
It's fall, y'all.
Audrey Cannata [00:01:24]:
It's. Oh, gosh, yes, yes. All the fall, y'all, signs are going to be out. But it is fall. We had some beautiful, just crisp, clean air. It's great to be outside. Football season's on. I mean, it just brings the energy.
Audrey Cannata [00:01:40]:
It's, like, refreshing. And everyone's just kind of walking around a little bit lighter, a little bit happier. And so we definitely don't take the weather for granted down here.
James Robert Lay [00:01:50]:
No, no, we don't. And it is fall, y'all. It is football season. I know you've got your fantasy Tennessee picks in. You've already started. And you said you won in the first weekend.
Audrey Cannata [00:02:01]:
I did win last week, yes. Off to a good start.
James Robert Lay [00:02:05]:
And you've been doing this fantasy football for. Golly, you told me what, this 15 years?
Audrey Cannata [00:02:11]:
This is our 15th year. Yes.
James Robert Lay [00:02:14]:
Never won.
Audrey Cannata [00:02:16]:
James Robert. No, sensitive subject. I have never won. Always a bridesmaid. I have come in 3rd, 4th, last, danced around. But no, I have yet. And it's an ongoing joke, trust me, in our league, that I am the just, you know, for some reason, fantasy gods have not loved me.
James Robert Lay [00:02:38]:
But you won week with number one, and you got to keep doing that. And I'm telling you, we're going to. We're going to look back to this episode. We're going to look back to this conversation. It's going to be recorded and you're going to win this year.
Audrey Cannata [00:02:48]:
Hope so. Let's. I hope so.
James Robert Lay [00:02:50]:
And that'd be, that'd be so much fun to be able to reflect on, on that progress. Speaking of progress, speaking of winning. And also, like, what it feels like to lose the pain of, quote unquote, losing the pain of being wrong, I know is how many financial brand leaders feel when we secret shop their websites because they're like, how could I miss that thing? Or how could I not see that? And as a result, they're losing millions in loans and deposits, especially for like, the little simple things. Well, we've taken a dose of our own medicine and we are secret shopping the digital Growth Institute website that launched about three weeks ago. We started shopping this about two weeks post launch. And you're leading these studies just like you do for our financial brands that we lead through the website seeker shopping study process. But we're learning and it could feel like a loss, it could feel painful, but we've chosen to take a different path. You specifically have chosen to take a different path and say, you know what, we either win or we learn.
James Robert Lay [00:04:02]:
And we have learned an awful lot. You actually push back on me. Whenever I said we should secret shop our own site, you were like, I don't know.
Audrey Cannata [00:04:12]:
Well, at first I, at first I thought, yeah, absolutely, we, we should secret shop our website 100%. And then I hit a little bit of the gap, I will be honest, because when we put the offer out there, I'm so grateful that we had several people write back. But of course, me, you know, thinking my operations and logistics, my calendar started getting filled up and I started stressing me out, thinking about my time. I felt like, you know, my calendar was filling up, I was losing time for other things. And I had a moment where I went to and I was like, James Robert, um, we better make sure that whatever we get from this time that we create some value here, because if I'm going to dedicate, you know, 30 minutes to this, because I, I'll be honest with you, I wasn't sure how much feedback and insight we were really going to get. I assumed we get something, but I, I thought for the most part we were, you know, pretty good to go. So I definitely underestimated and I ate my words. Like, after the first couple studies, I immediately texted you because we just got such good feedback and we acted on it immediately.
James Robert Lay [00:05:27]:
Yeah. And you know what? Because we have received such good feedback, I want to put it out just one more time. I think we've received 1212 people have reached out to us and they're, some of them are bank or credit union CEO's, some are senior vice presidents or chief marketing officers or vps of marketing. And some we've worked with, some we haven't worked with. They're like, I want to help secret shop your website, because for those that are secret shopping our site, I'm, I'm, in return, offering up a one on one digital growth coaching session with them. Typically that's a $1,000, but for them, it's a, it's a gift, it's an exchange of value. They're helping us. We're helping them.
James Robert Lay [00:06:15]:
So if you're watching or listening and you're like, you know what? I could use some one on one coaching from James Robert. Send me a text, 832-549-5792 and just reach out or send Audrey a text, 415-579-3002 and Audrey will help to get that website secret shopping study scheduled.
Audrey Cannata [00:06:37]:
I will not be in the gap, I promise. No, that was just for temporary. I'll be so happy to meet with you.
James Robert Lay [00:06:44]:
And, yes, and then on the flip side, I'll be so happy to facilitate a one on one coaching session with you to help you identify where you might have blind spots in your customer journeys that you just, you can't see, you're not aware of. And I, I get so much energy out of doing these customer journey assessments, and, you know, you've seen, you've said it on a couple of them recently, and they're getting a lot of clarity into, wow. Once again, it's just helping people see things from a different perspective, because there's wisdom. When you change the way you see things, the way you see things starts to change. So what, what have, what are you seeing different when it comes to the insights that you have gained? That we have gained from facilitating website secret shopping studies on the digital growth Institute website. What? Where were our blind spots?
Audrey Cannata [00:07:37]:
Oh, my gosh. Um, I don't even know where to begin. I mean, every call that bad? Every call, no, no. Every call has just, there's been something really, a key takeaway from every conversation. I think a couple of the biggest things that stood out for one immediately was taking a second look at our messaging, the way we were communicating, what it is that we're offering, the problem that we're solving. We, and I think many marketers do this. We were using so much of our own language to communicate the way we talk, the way we talk internally, we know what it means. We know what we do, and we weren't speaking to our customers through their language.
Audrey Cannata [00:08:29]:
And so when I talked to the first few people and I just straight asked them, what is it that we do? You know, what challenge are we trying to help you solve? There was a little bit of a struggle sharing it back in their own words. And what it came down to was it was just our messaging, our verbiage. You know, you and I love language. We loved, like, the art of language. So we, we did a lot of, like, you love alliteration, we, real cute ways of saying things. And what it came down to was, we just need to get straight to the point. We just needed to be very black and white. Exactly what, what is it that we do? And so we changed that immediately, I think, did I call you after that or.
Audrey Cannata [00:09:17]:
Pretty close after I texted you. And we completely changed our homepage. All the texts on our homepage. That hero image.
James Robert Lay [00:09:26]:
Yeah. And I think you got off a call and maybe you did one, maybe you did two. And then I get a text on my phone, and I'm actually facilitating a call with a prospect for a website, secret shopping study. And I'm like, um hmm, I don't want to sit around and wait on this one. It, you made it feel pretty urgent because you're.
Audrey Cannata [00:09:51]:
And I think that was my, my excitement came in. Like, I, I saw a need to change something. I did not want to waste a second.
James Robert Lay [00:10:00]:
Well, as an entrepreneur, I have a bias to action. Um, so it's like, if I get a new perspective, and you shared a new perspective, and it wasn't your opinion, it was, you did a couple of these calls and you were saying, uh, uh, we have a, we have a blind spot. It's a communication issue. And you're right. I love alliteration. I love language. I love etymology. Um, the, the study of words.
James Robert Lay [00:10:24]:
Um, it's great for writing a book.
Audrey Cannata [00:10:29]:
Horrible story.
James Robert Lay [00:10:30]:
Horrible for communicating clarity on a website. And one of the things that I have talked about over the years is clarity is the first step in a buying journey of any kind. Whether, if it's a financial brand who is wanting to learn where they're losing loans and deposits on their website, or if it's a prospective account holder wanting to buy a home or buy a car and they need to get a loan or open up a checking account. Clarity is the first step that moves someone beyond a state of confusion. The problem was that you shared with me, and then we took immediate action on is our language. Our perspective was confusing in the words of Donald Miller, if you confuse, you lose. And in fact, we were losing.
Audrey Cannata [00:11:20]:
Yeah. And what was really neat about it is we, because we were making those changes in real time. I immediately rolled into another secret shopping study. I don't know if it was later that day, the next morning, and we were able to get immediate feedback on the changes that we made, which then affirmed the decision. And so we weren't waiting to the end of the study to make the changes. So most of the people that I tested, seven, eight after the first one or two studies, every person got a different version, the website. We would test, make the update, and then share that new version of the website with the next person. And so it was just this rapid iteration process, which I think worked really well.
Audrey Cannata [00:12:07]:
We didn't wait. We didn't have a much of a discussion. Like you said, I texted you real quick, red flag, we got to fix this. We changed it and then moved on to the next study, and it kind of stayed that same process. This happened several times over the course of, what, about a week?
James Robert Lay [00:12:22]:
Yeah. And I think that's an important point, is when facilitating website secret shopping studies, the ability to take, in many cases, immediate action. This is not something, for example, when we are facilitating a website secret shopping study for a bank or credit union, it's not something that they should lament on or think about for weeks or months at a time. They should be able to be taking action within, within a minimum of 30 days post delivery of findings, recommendations.
Audrey Cannata [00:12:55]:
That's the whole point.
James Robert Lay [00:12:55]:
Optimization. Exactly. That is the whole point. It is the. It is meant to inspire action.
Audrey Cannata [00:13:03]:
Yep. Yeah. I mean, you want to have a deeper conversation and a deeper strategy. Absolutely. But the whole point of these is super short. Quick wins, 30 days. You can. I mean, you could make the changes on the spot.
Audrey Cannata [00:13:17]:
It's not supposed to be some big overhaul.
James Robert Lay [00:13:19]:
That's a fantastic point. You can make the changes on the spot, which is exactly what we were, what we were doing, which is what we did. Because, and I think the one that was the knife in my heart and it really hurt was the, when you told me there was a CEO that we have worked with over the years and you were asking her specifically, what, so what, what is it that. That we do or how, how can we help you? And we have helped her multiple times over the years, but based upon what she was seeing and perceiving on the website, she was not able to articulate that. And I'm like, damn, we have. We have missed the mark. But it wasn't that bad because we took the feedback, we optimized the messaging, the communication to provide what we thought was more clarity. And I think that's the point, is it was a hypothesis.
James Robert Lay [00:14:12]:
And then you did a couple more studies. And specifically, it was almost like the validation of when another tester came on that works in the industry. I think you shared with me their exact words, like, I know exactly what you do. And that was unprompted. That was unprompted response.
Audrey Cannata [00:14:31]:
It was, it worked out. I mean, it was so incredible. We made the change to the homepage. And the very next person that I tested, one of the first things, my very first question was, first impression of the homepage. Immediately they goes, well, I know exactly what I'm here to do. I know exactly what you do. And my cheeks just, I was grinning from ear to ear because it just validated that we made the right change. And I'm telling you, this gets addicting, dramatic or not, but I making these changes and knowing that every conversation is going to uncover something new, small or large, and then getting validated on that, it's like, give me more.
Audrey Cannata [00:15:15]:
Let's talk to more people. Why not? Why would I not want to make changes to our website? I already thought it was great, but now I'm even more confident. Every time I talk to somebody, it's just getting that much better and better and better.
James Robert Lay [00:15:28]:
That's a great point. It is about taking something that is good and making it even better. And it's not, it's not our opinion. I think that's, that's a key insight here is what we think is right could actually be wrong. What we think is right could actually be wrong in the eyes of someone else. And it's not a matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of communication. And communication is a yemenite secondary aspect of marketing and sales. Then there's multiple ways to communicate.
James Robert Lay [00:16:06]:
But a lot of this is about positioning and we were learning that we were not positioned properly. One of the other things this is, it's human insight driven. It's driven by having conversations with others. And right now I'm working on a mental model for banking on expertise. Third book, where in the age of AI, connecting with other human beings is going to be a critical part of any type of brand experience. That's because connections lead to conversations. Conversations lead to the ability to co create content, and content provides a path for future conversion. That's, that's a discussion for another day.
James Robert Lay [00:16:55]:
But it's something that, just as in real time, I'm seeing even what you're doing. It's the con. It's the connections that lead to the conversations, the conversations that you're learning. And one of the other lessons that we learned, and this was from someone else, and they actually text me, they said, your. Your primary call to action on the homepage, it's a bit confusing because the primary call to action when we launched the site was, uh, and this was secondary to the positioning, was to uncover your biggest customer journey, blind spots in as little as 30 today. The call to action was to talk to an advisor and shout out to Bill Bloom for sharing this with me, because Bill is working to build a fantastic app and is looking for collaborations with financial brands. The app is Diane money. We have had multiple conversations on the podcast about the progress that he's making around Diane money.
James Robert Lay [00:17:47]:
But Bill is like, because Bill is also a financial advisor. And he was like, are you. Are you a financial advisor? It was a matter. It was a matter of perspective. It's like, no, we offer advising. But he was like, well, that could be confusing. And he was. So we were going back and forth with tax, and he was like, well, what's the ultimate goal? It's really just to show people what the path looks like.
James Robert Lay [00:18:12]:
And so we changed that. Talk to an advisor to just what it is. Book a call. Have a conversation. Let's just talk. So let's just book a call. And it was like, oh. So we have seen how that has helped to provide more clarity.
Audrey Cannata [00:18:27]:
Simplify.
James Robert Lay [00:18:29]:
Yes, simplify.
Audrey Cannata [00:18:31]:
Go back to the basics. I think that's one of the things that we. We've learned, and I think that we help other financial brain leaders learn is so much of this. It's just going back to the basics of. I think we get caught up a lot in our experience, our bias. We're so close to our brand or organization, and it can be difficult sometimes. And I think that really, the path forward, you've got to get outside perspective. James Robert, you wrote the book making on digital growth, and you wrote the playbook for this, and yet you still ask for outside perspective because you're not immune to this.
Audrey Cannata [00:19:11]:
I mean, you are so close to the brand. There are things that even you can't see. So it doesn't matter how much experience you have and how much of an expertise you are, how much of an expert you are, you are still, no matter what, going to have your own biases because of your relationship.
James Robert Lay [00:19:27]:
Yeah, I've had to work on that a lot, because if we were doing this, like, 1012 years ago, I would have been highly offended, probably would have gotten angry. And I'm like, what do they know exactly? Like, the arrogance and the ego. And I'm like, no. I'm like, with you. Tell me more. Show us more. Which is why, once again, if you are watching or you're listening to this and you want to help us secret shop the digital growth Institute website, and then, and then I'll, in return, do a one on one strategic coaching session with you and even your team to help you identify where you have customer journey. Blind spots.
James Robert Lay [00:20:06]:
Text me 832-549-5792 or text audrey 415-579-3002 and she'll get that scheduled because I am not immune. I don't know where my blind spots are as a leader, which is why I'm involved in executive coaching programs. I don't know where our blind spots are as an organization when it comes to positioning, which is why we are. And why, Audrey, you have been facilitating website secret shopping studies. Because we just don't know what we don't know. Right?
Audrey Cannata [00:20:33]:
No, no. And I. Go ahead.
James Robert Lay [00:20:36]:
No, no. I was gonna say, there's something else. When we don't know what we don't know. And talking about ego and being able to let go of things because you and I had a battle about something when it came to the website, it was a big, contentious point, and I yielded to you. I was like, I yielded because you. The way you communicated, why was it hard? Why was it hard?
Audrey Cannata [00:21:06]:
This was a challenge because, like you said, I fought you on this. I mean, I fought you for a good couple hours one afternoon when we were just about ready to launch the site. And it just had to do with the image on the homepage and what we were going to lead with and communicate. And we went back and forth, and I finally won the battle. So we went with my idea, which was to just illustrate our program and the steps and how they're all in relationship to each other. And, I mean, by the end of the day, we were high fiving. We thought we nailed it. Um, feeling really good about it.
Audrey Cannata [00:21:48]:
I get on maybe call number. I think it was number three. Call number three and call number four. And they burst my bubble. The first one made a comment about it being lackluster. Then the second person commented about it was distracting, it was unnecessary. It took away from the messaging on the left. And I was like, okay, all right, say no more.
Audrey Cannata [00:22:21]:
And I saw it. I saw it from their point of view. It stung. It hurt. I wasn't mad at all. I was just like, dang. And so I. Did I text you this? I can't remember, but I knew that I was gonna have to come forward.
Audrey Cannata [00:22:40]:
But my ego aside, and tell you, James Robert, I was wrong. You were. Well, you were right.
James Robert Lay [00:22:47]:
No, I bought into it. I bought into what you were trying to communicate, because I had my head.
Audrey Cannata [00:22:54]:
My tail between my legs, and I was like, okay, yeah, I was wrong on this one.
James Robert Lay [00:22:58]:
And in your. Your heart and your thinking was 100% in the right place, which is why I. You finally got me to see what you were seeing, and I was like, bought in. And I'm a big models and methodologies thinker, and so I'm like, ah. I like the way that this is communicated. You're right. It was about really visualizing the process of the banking on digital growth program, which is comprised of three simple steps. It is.
James Robert Lay [00:23:26]:
Step one, it's like we're talking about today. It's secret shop, your website. Step two is to get your digital strategy, and step three is to then implement that strategy. And so we had a visual that walked someone through what that process looked like, and it made sense until it didn't make sense and didn't make sense to people that were not inside your head or my head. And it made sense to them. It did make sense to them, from what I recall you sharing with me. But it made them feel a little uncomfortable.
Audrey Cannata [00:23:54]:
Well, so there was a couple of things. I think I already mentioned that it was a little distracting, but one individual said, I get what you're doing. I see that this is a cycle. Step one, step two, step three, repeat. And she goes, I don't want to be stuck in a cycle that is overwhelming to me. I do not want to even think about that. And she goes, I see what you're doing from a marketing standpoint, from communicating. That's what you want them to see, the path forward, the long term goal.
Audrey Cannata [00:24:25]:
And she goes, I'm not ready for that yet. I don't. I don't want to think about it yet. I just want to, let's say, look at step one. Like I. You're. You're taking. It's like.
Audrey Cannata [00:24:36]:
Like we're skipping the first date. You know, we're just going straight for marriage. She wasn't ready for that. And it made perfect sense. It really did. And I think that's the struggle we have a lot of times as. And really you, James Robert, more than anyone, because you're such a visionary, and you do.
James Robert Lay [00:24:53]:
You tell me. I struggle with this.
Audrey Cannata [00:24:55]:
You. Well, I'm getting there. Getting so you see so far ahead of others, and you really want to bring them with you and you want them to see, but you have to wait until they're ready.
James Robert Lay [00:25:09]:
Yes, yes. And you're. You're 100% correct. This is an, this is a growth area for myself, and I've, as you know, I've had some coaching on this recently. Um, and the lesson learned is baby steps. It's like, you know, as a marketer, marketers are very forward thinking visionaries, particularly within the organization. And it's easy for a marketer to get ahead of everyone else. I was like, why? Where's everyone else? And, no, it's.
James Robert Lay [00:25:41]:
We got to slow down and walk on the. Not walk on the pace, but walk beside others, not get ahead of them. We know where they're. We know where to go. We know where to lead them. We know where to guide them, because we walk that path, you know, a thousand times, but we can't be five steps ahead of them. We got to be right beside them, walking with baby steps. That's a, that's a fantastic point you're making here.
James Robert Lay [00:26:04]:
And we pulled that back. We pulled that whole thing back because of the idea of the overwhelm. And it's like, if you can just get one win, well, that will lead to another win, and that will lead to another win. And it's the compounding wins. And the reason I'm wanting to pause and spend a little bit time on this is because I have been advocating for financial brands, for banks and credit unions to start doing, or to start considering the integration of a unique methodology that they can frame a customer journey around, because it begins to visualize what the journey is going to look like, what the journey is going to feel like for a prospective account holder, buying a car, buying a home, getting a checking account, getting business funding, whatever. That journey, that unique journey, is visualizing that, because it's the visual communication. The mind can process words 60,000 times, not words. The mind can process images and visuals 60,000 times faster than it can words.
James Robert Lay [00:27:18]:
And so we had another visual on the site that did test better than the, we'll call it the cycle or the circle. It was a more linear approach. What was the difference? It was a timeline. What was the difference? What was the feedback from this particular individual who felt overwhelmed with the cycle and the circle, but they felt much better with the linear timeline.
Audrey Cannata [00:27:46]:
I think that felt just a little bit more concrete. And there was a plan, and there was a clear one, two, three instead of it all kind of being meshed together. And I think, too, it showed the ability to start, stop, start something, stop. You know what I mean? Like, there was. There was more of a structure there versus, like, now we're getting on. I think of, like, the water park, the big ride where you're on the big two, and you just go down the little cycle. Like, once you get on, you're stuck. And I think, made people feel just a little bit more safe.
James Robert Lay [00:28:27]:
Yeah, that's a great. That's a fantastic point. It's. Or I think about maybe, like, a NASCAR racetrack. Like, once you're on the racetrack, you're gone. You're going. You're gone. You're gonna keep going in circles and circles and circles until you either run out of gas or get in an accident.
James Robert Lay [00:28:44]:
Versus it being something like, I don't know, the monorail at Disney.
Audrey Cannata [00:28:50]:
Like, you can get on early linearly, too. I mean, we naturally think in steps.
James Robert Lay [00:28:56]:
That's a. That's a great point. And I've been talking a lot about that in strategic planning sessions is that, you know, as technology, I've never connected that dot before until just now. The technology is continuing to move at an exponential rate. But I've said these words, the mind thinks linearly, and you're right when you see those steps. So, I guess the key takeaway for those watching or listening is if you are thinking about the integration of a unique methodology to communicate what it is you do and how you do it, that's a great step. Keep thinking that. Learn from our mistake of how to communicate that.
James Robert Lay [00:29:34]:
And the. The ideal path forward is a path. It is a linear approach, as opposed to a cyclical or a circle approach that we were causing confusion around. Speaking about confusion, as we start to wrap up here, we've. You've shared a lot of practical perspective that someone who is watching or listening can learn from. But if they were to take some of this thinking forward, what is one thing that they can do to make progress and apply this thinking themselves? To have a bias to action?
Audrey Cannata [00:30:12]:
I think it's a mindset shift. Don't fall in love with your website. Don't stay married to it. You know, we. As much as I loved the graphic we designed, I was also just as happy to toss it aside because I knew it wasn't what was best, and my ego didn't need it there. I didn't take it personally. You win some, you lose some, right? I think it's hard for us to separate our emotions from our work because we do work so closely with it. But we've got to be able to separate that.
Audrey Cannata [00:30:51]:
Don't take things personally. Even the most experienced marketer will have blind spots on their own website. It's just the way it is. James Robert will tell you he is the expert and still looks for outside help. So I think it's a mindset shift to answer your question.
James Robert Lay [00:31:11]:
Yeah. And it's interesting. And once again, you mentioned earlier the power of words. One of the things I queued in on that you said that I would optimize, almost like secret shopping. And that's the interesting thing. You know, we're, we are starting to secret shop the website to the contact center experience and how the website then transitions into a conversation. So, being mindful of words, one of the things that I heard you say that I would just optimize ever so slightly. And I think a lot of it is just, it's what we have been taught, what we, what we hear.
James Robert Lay [00:31:45]:
He said, we win some and we lose some. If we eliminate. If we can eliminate the loss, we win some and we learn some. And if we're learning, guess what? We're always going to be winning. Audrey, fair, great perspective. Thank you for sharing. For someone who is watching or listening, once again, I know she's still looking for some help. So if you want to help Audrey out and secret shop our website, text me 832-549-5792 or text her 415-579-3002 she will get you scheduled to secret shop our site.
James Robert Lay [00:32:24]:
But then on the flip side, I will then help you with a one on one strategic coaching session for you and or your team so that we can help to uncover the blind spots within your customer journey. Typically do these sessions for $1,000. But for you, it will be my gift to you because we are helping each other. That is collaboration. That is how we all learn. That is how we all grow. That is how we all get even better together. So, Audrey, thanks again for joining me for this episode of the Banking on digital Growth podcast.
James Robert Lay [00:32:54]:
Thank you as always. And until next time, y'all be well. Do good, be the light. See you soon.