ARITA NSW Young Professional Feature

San Koh: Morning Victoria.

Victoria Caldwell: Hello.

San Koh: Thanks for doing this. Do you want to start off with telling us a little bit about yourself?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, sure. I am a senior associate in the commercial and insolvency team at Vincent Young. I started at a boutique on Macquarie St called Allsop Glover, which is a general practice, and I discovered a love for commercial law. And after a bit of toing and froing I ended up as part of the Vincent Young team.

San Koh: OK. And how long have you been at Vincent Young for now?

Victoria Caldwell: I have been at Vincent Young for three and a half years, going on four years.

San Koh: Yeah, nice. And enjoying it, combining a bit of litigation with insolvency?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good team to be in and we've got a nice broad range of work.

San Koh: Okay, what led you to pursue a career in law specialising in litigation and insolvency?

Victoria Caldwell: Like many, I was drawn into the space by a capable mentor, David Greenberg.? David has a passion for insolvency and restructuring, and he's passed that passion on to the whole team. I'm very lucky to work with David and benefit from his wisdom.

San Koh: What are you most passionate about insolvency?

Victoria Caldwell: I think I would say that I most enjoy helping people to get to solutions. Ideally, we would come to outcomes that are win-win for everyone. But if that can't be done then the best outcome in the circumstance is what I generally aim to achieve, keeping in mind the clients’ interests and what it is that the client wants to achieve.

San Koh: And how would you describe what you do to the general lay person or to friends or family?

Victoria Caldwell: I joke that if I had to describe what I do badly, I tell people what long, boring documents say for money.

Probably more seriously, I'd say that if I had to describe it to family and friends, I do a combination of front-end advisory work to try and help people reach solutions and back-end work when it all goes pear shaped. That's usually enough for most people. But if I have to go into a little bit more detail then I talk about the differences between doing contract work and advising people on where they should be going and what they should be doing versus, for example, dispute resolution or the kind of insolvency and back-end work.? Situations where people just need a little bit of help to get themselves out of some sticky situations.

San Koh: Which probably involves reading through long documents.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah. Whether it's legislation or contracts, most people don't want to read the whole thing.

San Koh: Yep, well, lucky we have lawyers who do that.

Victoria Caldwell: Yes.

San Koh: So, have there been any memorable moments, cases or projects in your career so far?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah. One of the great matters I've had the opportunity to work on is the PBS external administration with RSM, who have been wonderful to work with.

San Koh: Hey.

Victoria Caldwell: Given the size and complexity of the PBS business, because they had companies in most of the Australian jurisdictions, the matter has had a lot of moving parts.? This has been complex in its own right. But if I had to identify one particular highlight from that matter, I'd say it was seeking judicial advice on the intersection of insolvency and construction law, and in particular, there's a piece of legislation in Queensland called the Building Industry Fairness Security of Payments Act 2017 and that particular Act has some quite interesting legislation about retention accounts and security.

Essentially, there were trust accounts in which money was held for the benefit of PBS’ contractors and subcontractors.? There was an interesting intersection where this legislation has some provisions about what trustees of these accounts were allowed to do, and there was just a question about whether liquidators were still bound by the legislation, or was it just the company itself? You know, are they agents etc? So yeah, it was really exciting to be on the cutting edge of law, if I can put it that way. It was exciting working on something that's going to have quite a lot of impact in in that particular jurisdiction for how external administrations of building companies work.

San Koh: Yes, that sounds exciting. So, what was the outcome of that particular case?

Victoria Caldwell: So the outcome of it was that the liquidators are actually bound by the legislation and need to administer these various accounts in accordance with the legislation. And the upshot of that is that there will be costs involved in doing that. So, liquidators need to think quite carefully about whether they are going to take on these jobs. Are they sufficiently resourced from other assets of the company because they can't have recourse to these accounts for their disbursements?

San Koh: Well, that's some ramifications for companies in insolvency, in construction in particular.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, it's quite a strict regime and I think the outcomes may not have been intended.

San Koh: Yeah, maybe not as favourable as how liquidators might like them to be, but there are always interesting cases coming up, for interpretations of the law and what we can and can't do, so the clarification helps.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah.

San Koh: What would your biggest takeaway be?

Victoria Caldwell: I'd say that there is a lot of work to do, particularly in the building and insolvency cross section space for reaching outcomes that are both satisfactory to the community and the general public, but also sensible from a business and commercial perspective for liquidators. At the end of the day, liquidators aren't charities. There needs to be outcomes that ensure the liquidators can do the work that they do properly and well, but also have outcomes that are still positive for people that really end up in quite difficult situations where they've done work but just aren't being paid for it.

San Koh: Yes, it'd be good to see work towards that outcome. And circling back to what you were passionate about in insolvency, you mentioned that David Greenberg was a good mentor. So what do you think makes a positive role model or mentor for a young professional?

Victoria Caldwell: I think a positive role model is someone who can remember what it's like to be a young professional and how bewildering an experience it is to come to the profession for the first time. A good mentor brings a lot of energy to working with people and taking people through the process of learning what it is that they're doing. And David does that very well. He's happy to sit down and explain, and to really take a young professional, in this case, a young lawyer, through what it is that they're doing and why they're doing it. And that's really helpful, I think, for young professionals to build their experience and to grow their toolkit of skills that you need to solve problems.

San Koh: Yeah. That's always really helpful if the partner who you report to, or your mentor, realises what you're going through as you progress and they explain the why behind decisions and situations.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah. And I think that the mentor who does remember what it's like to be new to the profession will ask better questions and can more effectively guide their mentee.

San Koh: Yes, I feel like mentoring is sometimes asking good questions, rather than giving good advice.

Victoria Caldwell: Yes. That's right.

San Koh: And how would you suggest someone go about in finding themselves a positive role model or mentor?

Victoria Caldwell: I think the easiest place to look is obviously in the place that you're working at. If there is a need to look outside your particular workspace for whatever reason, then I strongly recommend checking in with your professional body. So, for example, the Law Society runs a really wonderful 12 month mentoring program that I've benefited from, and I'm sure similar things exist in other professions.

San Koh: Yeah. So now that you're at a certain point in your career, you're obviously training juniors as well. How would you define success for yourself and what kind of advice would you give to younger professionals?

Victoria Caldwell: For me, I think success is knowing what's important to you and taking steps towards whatever that is. And I think it's okay for what you value to change. So, the converse of that is not knowing what you value or not trying, which is where you end up with failure. I think if you don't try to take the time to work out what you value or you don't take the time or effort to try and get it, then you're just going to end up with regrets living that way.

San Koh: And if you don't mind sharing, what do you value now?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, so for me, what I value in my career at this particular point in time is really taking the time to listen to the client and understand what their commercial objectives are. And for me, particularly as a lawyer, it's easy to be like “this is what the law says and you can't do this, and you can't do that”. But a valuable professional will say, okay, this is what you want to achieve and here's how you get there. Or maybe we can't quite get there. But how about these other options?

San Koh: Okay, so having more of that client perspective, a commercial perspective, when you suggest solutions or provide advice?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, because in the end, all clients find themselves in commercial situations. They're running businesses and it's helpful to know what the law is, but it's more helpful to know how they can to where they want to be.

San Koh: Okay, so I've got three final questions, and the next one would be an interesting one for a lawyer. How do you manage your work life balance?

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, I don't think there's a constant or a right answer to that question. There are different things that will work for different people, but my personal philosophy in coming to work life balance is essentially, if you act like an adult, you'll be treated like an adult.

If I had to give practical tips, it's to build trust with your colleagues and there's two main ways I would suggest doing that. One is by just rolling up your sleeves when there's work to be done and the second one is communicating early and often.

And I think if you do those two things, you will find that you can manage and reach a balance of sorts, whatever that looks like for you.

San Koh: And what is your favourite hobby or interest outside of work?

Victoria Caldwell: One of the biggest things that I get a lot of joy out of at the moment is volunteering at a cooperative garden on the weekends. It's actually a lot of fun. We all get together on a Sunday morning, and plant things, wheel wheelbarrows of dirt around, harvest, take out weeds, trim hedges, compost... There's a lot of things that you can do to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. And I think it's just nice to be very grounded for that period of time. It's very earthy.

San Koh: Nice.?It's completely different to what you do during the nine to five on weekdays. Good for getting some exercise.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, getting outside, enjoying some sunshine, working your body.

San Koh: What have you planted so far?

Victoria Caldwell: At the moment, we've got broad beans in the garden which are growing quite tall. They'll be ready to harvest soon. We're battling a little bit of an aphid infestation, but that's normal for broad beans, so you just got to keep working on it. Otherwise, we're preparing to put in our summer crops, so we've been working on raising new beds in the recent weeks.

San Koh: Oh, nice. Yeah, it's almost time for summer.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, it's very exciting. It's nice to see the seasons roll in the garden.

San Koh: Last question. If you can meet anyone, who would you most like to meet?

Victoria Caldwell: I struggled with this question a lot, but I have thought about it recently and I'd like to meet my grandparents as an adult. I think it would be a different experience meeting them now as opposed to when I was a child.

Hearing their stories, getting their take on life, and it would be nice if they said they were really proud of me. It's not grand, but I think it would be special.

San Koh: Yes, it's always nice to have that connection and to revisit it from a different perspective now that you're older.

Victoria Caldwell: Yeah, and there's a lot of wisdom that I think that because you're a child, you don't maybe interpret the same way, or you don't get the opportunity to hear. So, I think that if I got the opportunity, I would like to meet them and speak to them about what their lives were like and what they would say about mine.

San Koh: Yeah, a little wisdom through the generations.

Victoria Caldwell: That's right.

San Koh: Nice. Well, I think that concludes our chat. Are there any other last words that you would like to add?

Victoria Caldwell: I just want to say thank you very much for having me and for giving me this opportunity.

San Koh: Yeah, thank you very much. We appreciate having you for our first YP feature of FY25.

Victoria Caldwell: Woo Hoo.

San Koh: Thank you very much for your time.

Victoria Caldwell: No worries. Thanks San.