Agencies - Turn up with Flowers. Relationships Matter

What have you done for your client, today, that's outside of the scope? I have this thing, how did you show up with flowers, so to speak, and surprise them? What's the value you're really offering in this relationship? 

A recent podcast with the gracious hosts from the Movidiam team

Founder of the Sunday Dinner, Lindsey Slaby, joins the Movidiam Podcast to discuss her personal journey through agencies and onto Sunday Dinner. Lindsey talks about the challenges facing brands and the evolving relationship with those that help tell their story. We talk about her unique style of approaching projects and her advice on how to think about team structures from content to fees to the brief.

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Transcript below.

Hello, and welcome to the Movidiam Podcast. Today I'm delighted to welcome Lindsey Slaby from Sunday Dinner. Lindsey, welcome.

>Thank you. Thanks for having me.

We've gone over a little bit, Lindsey, how you came into the industry. Can you give our listeners just a little bit of background on where you've worked and how you came to develop Sunday Dinner?

>Sure. A large percent of my professional career has been spent agency-side. I got my feet wet working with AKQA when they were in DC. Running accounts and really servicing accounts, and the amazing thing about a place like AKQA is they don't really have a distinction between project management, producer, client service. It was, "This is your account, and how can you make it the best possible thing?" From dealing with agency to producing. So, I got to learn a lot in that world, of how to really drive a client's business forward, and agency services. I loved it. Through there, I worked for various agencies, venture capitalists, tech start-ups, etc. In my last position in an agency, I worked in the digital production department at Droga5, really helping to bring to life campaigns for them. It was at a time where I realised that what was driving my mind a little bit more was what was happening inside of the brands on the marketer's side. At a really pivotal moment when we needed to think a little bit more about how they could set up agencies and partners and internal teams for success, and that's really where Sunday Dinner sits.

You talk about the beginning moment, or the moment something is there for a client or a brand, and how they take that to the next stage, how do they find the right resources to effectively make themselves famous, and that's very much what you've done a lot of, is point people to the right teams of best fit?

>Yes. I spend a lot of time helping brands rethink how they brief. Even when I get a brief, and help them evaluate it, it's, "What are we really asking for in here?" This brief might have five different questions that kind of point you in the direction of five different agencies, but you're going to one team. So how do we reframe that the right way? How do we staff that and think internally about who we might have or what we need to solve first? And then, how do we approach a project in a new way? It means the projects sometimes are incredibly diverse, because sometimes it's, "Yes, we have the internal resources that we should be able to work through this internally. Great. Two, we have a roster of, you know, five to 50 agencies, and how do we activate the right ones in the right way? Or, three, we need help with searching for someone," and search is such a dirty word in our industry right now. Agency search, that process is quite painful for many agencies, so we try to do that a little bit differently and think of how we bring in varieties of teams to crack briefs and workshops and think tank through things. Then, of course, finding the right resources for the project.

I think often times people look at, maybe, my background or the business that we're in, and think we're trying to really disrupt this model and we're very anti-large agencies. To me, it really doesn't matter. It's about casting, and sometimes, you know, large teams are spot-on, they're right for a certain client. Sometimes small teams are. Sometimes mid-size teams are. Sometimes, again, there's no team required at all, let's just bring in some amazing strategy partners or individuals to help you crack that internally. Everything is so complex right now, I think it's about isolating that need and really thinking through, "Who are our resources and what's the best way to do this?" Without just all of a sudden starting in motion of, "This is the process. We need to follow this process. This is how we find people." Because, that's where I think both sides of the equation get into trouble a lot, and nobody really knows what they're asking for. That upfront moment.

You talk about this added complexity. When a system or industry gets more complex, is that because of the fragmentation that's going on, or is that because of different client demands, or different channels that they've got to be making themselves famous on?

> So, complexity of the actual channels. I mean, yes, obviously it's so complex now. I mean, you know, if you think of the retail industry, consumers want everything, where they want it now, and you need to fulfil their needs at any moment. I think brands are really focused on that consumer experience and trying to connect the dots, but attribution models haven't caught up yet, and content is constantly an issue, and how do we really maintain satisfying the needs of very demanding consumers? That puts a lot on the marketer. It's almost overwhelming to say, "Are we going to do everything across this entire consumer experience perfectly?" That's a lot of pressure. Thinking about how you have the right partnerships and teams and process to get to the right solution, I think, is most important. You know, it used to be that when you're cracking a solution, you'd have less money and less teams in the beginning, you know, small team to really help you, then that triangle would expand and you'd have a lot more money, time and effort towards production. Well, it's the other way around now. It's about having more of the right people at the table in the beginning, spending more time and effort on really thinking through, "Do we really need to show up in this channel, right? Do we really need to do all these things? How do we do that the right way?" Then, execution, to be honest is a little bit more now. There's so many different ways we can make things with different budgets and practices and teams. So, it's that upfront moment to really understand what we're trying to do. Because, a lot of times, you don't need to satisfy every single platform, you know?

I'm not sure if that's making any sense?

Yeah, no, it does make sense. You've going to be selective and choose where your audience is.

>Yes. Where you're going to put your bang for your buck. So, then, it's really understanding about casting, and which specialists help you understand the right way to attack those things in the beginning. You know, if your goal is to sell X cases of a product, do we really need to have influencer marketing or awareness driven things? Perhaps not. Maybe this is a performance marketing play. Everybody kind of needs to come together and have that discussion in the upfront, which is always the most challenging, because it is like wrangling a lot of people together and facilitating that discussion, which I think is really important. How do you orchestrate a conversation, when there's so many more things you need to do, and so many more specialists, and you don't want to now have a table that has 30 people sitting at it. You still need to make sure that it's just the right people, and you're orchestrating that, but you need contribution from all of these groups. So, that orchestration process in the beginning, of deciding what we're going to do and how we're going to go about it, it needs a conductor because it is such an art, I feel.

That's a very descriptive way of putting it. I suppose, if I think about a film shoot or, you know, as a former head of production I think you'll understand this, but I think the role of a director, you know, directors usually get a lot of space and they bring in the concept and develop that, certainly get the performance out of the actors, but actually, it's the producer role, today, which is actually pulling all the various disparate parts of it together. I think we've seen that change, certainly in the agency management structure, and actually how a really good point person has to funnel the traffic, the job traffic or the responsibility traffic.

>I think on the agency side, you know, I notice that brands, right now, there's a lot of different things they're looking for. But, I hear from agencies all the time, there's constant reviews and their value isn't being cited properly and they're siloed. Yes, that is the case, but what have you done for your client, today, that's outside of the scope? I have this thing, how did you show up with flowers, so to speak, and surprise them? What's the value you're really offering in this relationship? Agencies are running so fast and there is a lot of complaints, but brands need a lot of help right now. And there's no shortage of it, but they're not necessarily just looking for you to execute their campaign, they're looking for you to help and come in and maybe have an office in their office and help them really understand the challenges that they're going through, and get to know the business, and bring different insights and value to them in ways that I don't think agencies typically think that they need to service a client. I always say, you know, it's all about how you deliver. If you're giving an A in creativity and a C in client service, well, then your account's going to go up for review. If you're knocking it out of the park in client service and, to be honest, you're getting a B or a C in creative, that's okay. Right now, brands need partnerships, because there's a lot of things, and complexity that we were just talking about, where they really need support. So, I think this is where you're finding this world of consultants, whether it's the big guys or the small guys or the small partners or the small strategy teams coming in. They're really servicing and offering insights that aren't the typical check box of agency deliverables. That's important to me, and that's what my business does quite a bit, as well.

If I think, I mean, I know you're prolific on LinkedIn, and the hacking of the independent agency business model, you've got a few tips. Have those tips come out of the experience and the change that's going on there? I mean, are you calling agencies to actually say, "Look, you've got to just do more than business as usual." As you said, turn up with flowers. Those are practical tips from your understanding?

>Totally. You know, it's interesting.We're brand consultants. We work with the marketers. But, making agencies better, the minute that they walk into that door is a part of that. I think that marketers encourage that. There's a little bit of, "Come on guys. There are these things that you're not doing." You know, agencies, they're running the business. They're so heads down on running the business. There are so many pressures of being a small business owner and moving forward. In any business, people sometimes just don't pick their head up and think about the things that they need to be doing. I guess maybe that's the same thing with a marriage, too. It's sometimes, like, "We need date night. We need to inspire a little bit of spark back into our relationship." I would say that's the same thing. As sort of, sometimes, a counsellor between the two, I can offer insights to the agencies, to say, "These are some things you could do that would really help build a relationship," and I think they're usually really thankful for it. It's not that they don't know how to behave that way, it's just that it's maybe a forgotten practice, or a comfort in how that relationship has been tracking. So, I do often hear that a lot.

A renewal of vows is required.

Yeah, we're just going to go with this marriage and dating theme, here.

Okay. Okay. Good, I like it. So, in terms of ideas, one of the things currently computers don't come up with is ideas, but where do you see technology beginning to impact on the business?

>Yes. It's very interesting. I recently went to a retail conference called Shop Talk where all the top retail marketers were there, and then all of the automation platforms and people that are really innovating in the space of content and technology and AI were all there. There were no creative agencies there whatsoever. I think when it's a business like retail that really needs to drive sales, you are definitely moving into the space of performance-based technology. Where it creeps into the creative space the most, I think, is in content development. You know, if you are a company that sells shoes, do you really need to go and shoot every shoe in a studio, from all different angles, anymore? No. Those are being auto-generated. I mean, artificial intelligence can actually generate that for you without even shooting the product. There's such efficiency in content creation. Obviously, there needs to be a lens of creative direction around that, and quality control, but there are so many things that we can do that typically a creative agency would have done. So I think it's, you know, the brand needs to understand where they can get the efficiencies from different technology and a variety of different places. Then, the agencies need to stop fighting that and say, "Guess what, we know that too. Let us provide our value in helping you evaluate the right places you should be doing this and then we'll oversee it." Sometimes, they just have to let go of that and realise what's changing, and again, be a great partner that says, "There are all these amazing technologies, did you even know about them? Let's talk about how we're going to work on those together." Because the money, necessarily, might not change. It might just get reallocated into the work that, let's be honest, creative agencies want to be executing. It's, again, that stewardship of a brand, to say, "We have a million dollars to spend on something, what's the best way we can spend it?" It's not about making it 700,000 dollars, it's about the best way of spending that million dollars.

I think that agencies, traditionally, get very nervous about letting go of something, because, to be honest, sometimes clients can be not the best about how they treat some of that and how they find efficiencies, but this is that partnership. And, if you're in an agency that hasn't really moved into the world of where tech plays a role in some of these things, in video creation, or groups like Tongal, or even on the content creation side, then kind of own that and say, "We're learning this as well, but we're going to be the ones that help you sort through that and funnel it," and bring insight decks to your clients, and bring those people in to talk to them, and bring them to conferences, and learn with them together. Just be that partner, because they value that you know the brand and have a vision.

Yeah, sure. Just moving to one of the points that you've referenced on that LinkedIn article, as well, where you talk about a dedicated content bucket that everyone pulls from. Can you just extrapolate on that? Because it's actually a theme that I agree with, as well, that people have got to draw on the same resource to be efficient.

>Right, it is so complicated. I'm working with a brand right now, and we have a set amount of money we're going to spend. I don't really care where it comes from. We don't know what we're going to make yet. We don't know where the media is going to go yet. So, with the two agencies we're onboarding, we really need to say, "This is the theme." But then, there's this bucket of money that once we figure out what we're going to make, we need to be efficient with it. So, again, let's just say we have a million bucks. Let's put that in a content bucket. When we're evaluating our strategy, the content program. We'll be able to say, well, if we do this content with T Brand Studio, we know we'll get the right kind of creativity, we'll be able to get that as a buy. We should let them execute that. That's part of the media buy. Great. Boom. We don't have to make that. Now, these are the types of, you know, animated gifs, or basic content we want to create. We could actually move that into the fee at one of the agencies,because they have two people who do that for us who are available. Great. Fine. Increase your fee. That's the right way to do that. You know, I think that there needs to be a stewardship conversation, again, around, "What's the best use of this money to make what we need to make?" And when you allocate all the production budget in the upfront, you then very quickly give it to someone who's like, "Well, we only really make commercials, so I guess that's what we're going to make." That just isn't the right model for a lot of brands anymore. What you need to make sure, though, this is that relationship with, if you have multiple agencies, someone has to be in charge of making them feel like that's okay. You know, team A isn't going to pull all of it, not allow team B to have a voice, and it's the brand really playing the role or having some sort of consultant in the room that helps orchestrate and make everyone feel like, "We're not pulling from your bottom line, we are merely trying to do the best thing by meeting the client's needs first, right? Not keeping your team busy. Your fee is going to stay as it is." It's all about the right way to make things, you know?

Yeah, sure. I get a sort of palpable sense of business acumen there, Lindsey, which is actually justified. ROI, Is this absolutely the right piece, do we need a gif here or do we need a film or do we need a still image, or can we develop something on an AI? I get a palpable sense of business return for the customer there, behind that thinking, as opposed to just the maker culture of, "Here's the brief, we're going to just make this."

>Yes. And timelines, too, sometimes. You know, people are pushing out timelines because they want to build up their fee. This all really comes down to the right way that brands are setting things up in the beginning of the process. "Here's how I'm going to work, here's the money. I'm not going to nickel and dime you on it. We've got this to spend. You're my two or three teams, or one team, or whatever. I trust in you that you are going to make the right decisions for me." And, if the brand guides that and makes that process easy, they're going to get really great work. Because, you're going to get a resourceful team that's not just trying to push one big thing, they're thinking about all sorts of different, interesting things that ... You know, they pop up all the time. We need to be reacting in real time, and have budgets that can move in real time and flow between agencies and flow between different mediums and partnerships, etc. So, I think the production budget is a really interesting place to look at, how does that become a little bit more unified and not doled out early in the beginning of the process?

Just a last question, Lindsey, because we're heading for a full 20 minutes, how do you see that production budget? I mean, it used to be the big idea's important, and then into production. How do you see that production budget having changed over your career?

>It's funny. I mean, I worked at many big agencies where the end production were separate, and technology and creation was always on the production budget, right? So, we'd get these huge ideas in the upfront, but since the technology team wasn't activated until the production budget, no one would ever know if it was feasible. I fought that for a long time, going, "This is ludicrous. We have to change this." Amazingly, I worked under great leadership at agencies that said, "Yeah," you know, "Let's change that." Again, there's that split sometimes. It's 60/40. It's working, non-working. You know? I, again, am a big supporter of the production budget can be tackled in so many different ways. It's all about what the idea is. A lot of agencies think that they need a huge production budget to make a big idea happen. Well, not really. That's not the case anymore. The most powerful marketing today can be from partnerships, which, the production budget for that could be $10,000, you know, versus a million dollar commercial. I think it has to be flexible. I don't think there are any rules around it per se, if that's what you're asking. But, I have seen, obviously, agencies try to pull that in because they think their fee is shrinking, but I would argue, try to see if you can get those dollars, I know that there are financial and write-off components around it, but try to get the fee and the production budget to be grouped together, and then make sure that you can advise the client on the best way to do that.

Sounds about fantastic and right, Lindsey. Lindsey Slaby from Sunday Dinner, thanks ever so much for your time on the Movidiam Podcast today.

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