ADM H.G. Rickover Interview of CDR Elmo Zumwalt, Excerpts

Rickover: Everyone who interviewed you tells me you are extremely conservative and have no initiative or imagination. What do you have say about that?

Zumwalt: I need a few seconds to reflect on that, Admiral. It is the first time I have received a charge like that about me.

Rickover: This is no charge, godd**n it. You're not being accused of anything. You are being interviewed and don't you dare start trying to conduct the interview yourself. You are one of those godd**n aides. You've been working for your boss so long you think you are wearing his stars [His boss was a civilian, Zumwalt does not point that out]. You are accustomed to seeing people come in and grovel at your boss's feet and kiss his tail that you think I'm going to do it to you. [Looking to Captain James Dunford, an aide]. Now get him out of here. Let him go out and sit until I think he is ready to be interviewed properly. [Turning to Zumwalt] And when you come back in here, you better be able to maintain the proper respect

[Ten minutes later]

Rickover: ?Now, what is your answer to my questions

Zumwalt: I think that my record shows –

Rickover: Answer the question.

Zumwalt: I believe I have –

Rickover: Answer the question.

Zumwalt: I have initiative, imagination, and I am not a conservative.

Rickover: Humphhhhh! Where did you go to high school?

Zumwalt: Tulare Union High School.

Rickover: Where did you stand in high school?

Zumwalt: I was the valedictorian.

Rickover: I said where did you stand.

Zumwalt: Number one.

Rickover: How many in the school?

Zumwalt: About –

Rickover: Answer the question, approximately.

Zumwalt: Three hundred.

Rickover: Aside from the summers, did you work or did your family support you?

Zumwalt: I worked in the summers –

Rickover: Listen to my questions, godd**n it.? You’ve been an aide too long.? You’re too used to asking the questions.? You are trying to conduct this interview again.? I said “Aside from the summers.”? Now, do you think you can answer the question or do you want to stop the interview right now?

Zumwalt: My family supported me.

Rickover: What did you do after high school?

Zumwalt: I went to prep school for a year.

Rickover: Why?? To learn what you should have learned in high school?

Zumwalt: I didn’t have an appointment to the Naval Academy yet.

Rickover: Why didn’t you go to college?

Zumwalt: I had a great awe of the Naval Academy and wanted to have a better background.

Rickover: In other words, you did go to prep school to learn what you should have learned in high school.? Where did you stand in the Naval Academy?

Zumwalt: In the top three percent.

Rickover: Did you study as hard as you could?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: Do you say that without any mental reservation?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: Did you do anything besides study?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: In other words, you didn’t study as hard as you could.

Zumwalt: I gave my answer in the context of what I thought was the balance between academic and extracurricular –

Rickover: Stop trying to conduct the interview.? You’re acting like a damn aide.? I told you for the last time, I am conducting this interview.? Now shall we go ahead on that basis or do you want to get out of here?

Zumwalt: I’m ready to go ahead on that basis.

Rickover: Now, what were these extracurricular affairs you are so proud of?

Zumwalt: I was a debater, and orator, and –

Rickover: A debater! In other words, you learned to speak equally forcefully on either side of a question.? Doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what you believe is right.? Just argue the way someone tells you to.? Good training for an aide.

Zumwalt: No sir, I consider debating taught me logical and orderly processes of thinking.

Rickover: (shouting).? Name one famous man who was able to argue on either side of the question.

Zumwalt: Clarence Darrow.

Rickover: Darrow.? Darrow.? What case?

Zumwalt: Leopold and Loeb case.

Rickover: (shouting).? You are absolutely wrong.? I warn you here and now.? You better not try to talk to me about anything you don’t know anything about.? I know more about almost anything than you do, and I know one helluva lot more about Darrow than you do.? I warn you, you better stop trying to snow me.

Zumwalt: In my mind, Darrow believed in the right of every man to have counsel, and, believing that, he could take either side of a case.

Rickover: You’re wrong. Absolutely wrong.? Darrow believed in the fundamental dignity of human life, and there was only one side of any case that he could take [Turns to Dunford] Get him out of here.? I’m sick of talking to an aide that pretends he knows everything.

[One hour later]

Rickover: Don’t you even have enough sense not to chew gum when being interviewed?

Zumwalt: I am not chewing gum, sir.

Rickover: Then what the hell are you chewing?

Zumwalt: I had a bite of a sandwich in my mouth when sent for.

Rickover: (trace of a smile).? All right.? Now are you ready to talk sensibly about Clarence Darrow?

Zumwalt: Yes sir.

Rickover: Do you still think he could take either side of a question?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir, having in mind his fundamental belief that everyone deserves counsel.

Rickover: I give up. [Pause]? Suppose you were the superintendent of the Naval Academy.? What would you do with the curriculum?

Zumwalt: In these troubled times, with the midshipmen’s course as crowded as it is, I would eliminate some English and history to provide more math and science.

Rickover: Thank God you are not the superintendent!? It’s just the kind of stupid jerk like you who becomes superintendent.? That’s what’s the matter with our curriculum today.? Do you mean that you would graduate illiterate technicians?

Zumwalt: No, sir.? I would expect the midshipmen to acquire their extra history and English on their own, after finishing school.? I fact, I would insist on it.

Rickover: Did you ever read anything after you graduated?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: Any philosophy?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: Name one.

Zumwalt: Plato.

Rickover: Now, I warned you not to try to impress me.? I told you I was sick of having an aide trying to impress me.? I proved how stupid you are on Darrow.? I know more about this subject and almost any other subject than you do.? Are you sure you want to go on about Plato?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: What did he write?

Zumwalt: The Republic.

Rickover: Did you read it?

Zumwalt: Yes, sir.

Rickover: What’s it about?

Zumwalt: The ideal man or the ideal democratic state.

Rickover: (addressing Dunford).? You see what kind of stupid jerk this guy is?? Trying to pretend he knows about The Republic.? [Turns to Zumwalt] I can tell you what The Republic is about.? It’s about justice.? How long did you study the Republic?

Zumwalt: About twenty hours.

Rickover: (shouting) Twenty hours!? You mean to tell me that a guy like you could learn all about one of the great works in twenty hours?

Zumwalt: No , sir.? I am sure I could have put more time in it.

Rickover: How many?

Zumwalt: Probably one hundred.

Rickover: (shouting).? One hundred!? Much more like one thousand for a guy like you.? Do you think Plato would have advocated eliminating history and English from the curriculum?

Zumwalt: No, sir.? But Plato was postulating a perfect world, and we don’t have one.

Rickover: Stop trying to conduct the interview. [Turns to Dunford] I am getting sick of this guy.? He is trying to act like an aide again.? Get him out of here.?

?

[45 minutes later]

?

Rickover: How long have you been interested in nuclear power?

Zumwalt: Five years.

Rickover: What have you done to prepare yourself for nuclear power?

Zumwalt: I have watched for various –

Rickover: Answer the question.

Zumwalt: Very little.

Rickover: [Calls his secretary in and begins to dictate to her] Dear Mr. President. For five years I have wanted a million dollars.? Please send me a check for the same today.? Yours very truly, H.G. Rickover.? P.S.? I have done nothing whatsoever in the last five years to earn the money.? But send it anyway…. Do you get the idea?? Why haven’t you done anything?

Zumwalt: My modus operandi has always been to study intensively the background of the specific area in which I am currently operating.

Rickover: What is your current area?

Zumwalt: Personnel.

Rickover: How much do you study?

Zumwalt: I average four hours per night.

Rickover: Just on personnel?

Zumwalt: Two hours a night on the important papers of my office and two hours a night on background studies.

Rickover: God help us! That's what's wrong with our personnel when we have guys like you working on it. How long have you known that you were going to be interviewed?

Zumwalt: About four to six weeks.

Rickover: Four times seven is twenty-eight. Time four is one hundred and twelve. That's one hundred and twelve hours at least since you've known - that you've had available for study, by your own admission. Now, why haven't you studied anything about nuclear power in this period?

Zumwalt: I have.

Rickover: What?

Zumwalt: The BuPers booklet on nuclear physics.

Rickover: Are you ready to take a test on it?

Zumwalt: No, sir. But I think I could pass.

Rickover: I doubt it.

Rickover: Where did you stand in math?

Zumwalt: About the top three percent.

Rickover: In science?

Zumwalt: The same.

Rickover: English?

Zumwalt: Within the top seven.

Rickover: And you want to eliminate it?

Zumwalt: Curtail it.

Rickover: What did you do when you graduated from the academy?

Zumwalt: Went to a Pacific destroyer.

Rickover: Which one?

Zumwalt: Phelps.

Rickover: What did you do?

Zumwalt; Assistant Engineer.

Rickover: Assistant Engineer. Are you sure?

Zumwalt: Yes sir.

Rickover: How many in the engineering department?

Zumwalt: Three officers.

Rickover: Oh. Then you weren't the Assistant Engineer. You were just a flunky. There you go again tying to act like an aide again. Trying to impress me. The Assistant Engineer is the number two officer.

Zumwalt: We called all officers assistants, other than the chief engineer.

Rickover; Don't start trying to conduct this interview.

?

Rickover: What are you going to do when you get back to the Pentagon, run up and down the E-ring and tell everybody about this interview?

Zumwalt: Admiral, I’m going to say it was the most fascinating experience of my life.

Rickover: Now you’re being greasy.? Get out of here.

Account taken from ADM Elmo Zumwalt's recorded recollection of the events in May, 1959, and recounted in Polmar and Allen's "Rickover: Controversary and Genius," Simon and Schuster, 1982.