52 Cups of Coffee: 417 Edition - Cup 11/52 - Kurt Theobald

After hearing about the book 52 Cups of Coffee on a Podcast, I thought it sounded like a great opportunity to connect to people in my community. Initially, my plan was to just have coffee once a week with someone I know. I was thinking of friends, family members, or colleagues with whom I could spend some quality time. But the opportunity to engage with my community is always in the back of my mind. So I thought it might be interesting to ask the same set of questions to a diverse cast of influential and interesting people in the 417 area and share them here on my LinkedIn page. At the end of the year, who knows what we'll have... at the very least it's 52 interesting conversations. It's a loose plan. I don't have any real intentions and I think that's the beauty of it. Curiosity. Community. And a chance to learn a little bit from each person. A big thanks to the folks at Travellers House Coffee & Tea for being willing to provide a place to chat and several cups of coffee throughout the year!

**I don't like taking notes while having coffee and conversation so I've trusted Otter to do the transcribing. Any editing issues are my own. I'm not a professional. :) I've included a list of books we discuss throughout the conversation at the bottom.

Kurt Theobald - 11/52

Kurt Theobald is the CEO of Classy Llama and current inheritor of the giant fork (and if you aren't a Springfield person I don't expect you'll get this reference). And while being CEO of a successful and growing e-commerce company is nothing to scoff at, I don't think that alone does justice in describing Kurt's passions and philosophies. Kurt is also an author and was kind enough to give me a copy of The Llama Manifesto, which I really enjoyed. I planned to read it on vacation but I finished it on the plane before we even arrived. Kurt is a self-described intense person, but he also says that he is often misunderstood, and in my short experience with Kurt I can see how his cadence and passion might come off as intense. To me, that's a misunderstanding. Kurt has a sense of urgency about the things that are important to him. Many of those things are much bigger than Classy Llama, at least on the grand scale of humanity. Below he says, "My work is agnostic to the application." that is to say that his work is more than just what he does in the office. We covered a lot of ground below... the first question of 13 took us over 30 minutes. I thought we were going to have to make this a two part discussion! And I'd be down for a follow up (hit me up Kurt!) it's a longer than usual read, but it's a deeper than usual dive. It is full of a very interesting, introspective, philosophical discussion around life, work, religion, marriage, creativity... and a whole bunch more. Overall, I get the feeling from our discussion that he is genuine about his passion for helping people succeed "holistically". I'm better for having this cup of coffee. I hope you're better for reading the discussion. While I'm usually meeting folks at Traveller's House, Kurt suggested Architect Coffee Co and I'm not one to turn down "The Architect". Check it out!

Rhett Roberson?

This will be fun, I've made additional notes in the back of my copy of The Llama Manifesto (Kurt’s Book - https://a.co/d/d36fT89 ) to remind myself as we kick through this…?

Kurt Theobald?

Okay!?

Rhett Roberson?

and I'm holding it, your own book, in my hand.?

Kurt Theobald?

Friend, you are one of the few people, you are one of the esteemed few that has read this.?

Rhett Roberson?

I just want you to know, I went through it, and it's dog-eared!?

Kurt Theobald?

Oh, man, then you are you are probably one of one.?

Rhett Roberson?

I made it. (both laughing) I read it in one single day.?

Kurt Theobald?

Actually, that's not true. My dad went through dog-eared this thing too. So, you're one of two. All right, well, hopefully that makes it more interesting.?

Rhett Roberson?

Well, it gives me a little extra to go off of and I think if we were to dive too deeply into the philosophy of the book that this would be a several hour long discussion.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's probably true. There's a lot of depth there.?

Rhett Roberson?

There is, but it was really good, really interesting.?

Kurt Theobald?

Well, I'm glad.?

Rhett Roberson?

I will just kick right to it and go with the first question, which is always fun. What is the CliffsNotes version of Kurt Theobald??

Kurt Theobald?

There are a couple of ways to answer that. First, just some chronological context, spatial context. I grew up in Missouri, I'm a Missouri boy through and through. Lake of the Ozarks is where I grew up, just outside of Camdenton, and I grew up in a financially and emotionally insecure home. A broken family kind of thing. When I was 11, my parents split, I went with my mom. My dad was a brilliant man, but also exceptionally unstable. He struggled with his own heart and so it made it hard for him to care for anybody else's. And of course it had a very negative impact on my mother, as well. She had her own bag of challenges as a result of that. Not including some of the challenges she had growing up, herself. That was very shaping for me as a young person. I developed independence very early. I recognized I wasn't going to be parented in the normal way. I have a younger brother who's seven years younger than me. He was four at the time, so I ended up taking a lot of the responsibilities for him, as well. That grows a kid up pretty fast. So, that's a significant part of my life. It resulted in a lot of depression. At a young age I was having very dark depression, but I also had a really great youth group. I had a church that I went to, but the youth group was really the thing that created an anchor for me. The youth leaders were like surrogate parents for me and that was really valuable. I had friends there that I really connected with and felt really intimately known and loved. That was very important for me coming from a broken family like I did. Another significant aspect of my chronological life is that I fell in love with my now wife when I was 12 and just pursued her through our whole teen years. We got married when we were 19 and that'll be 20 years on Thursday of next week.?

Rhett Roberson?

Nice, congratulations!?

Kurt Theobald?

A big milestone for us!?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah.?

Kurt Theobald?

It's exciting to have that achievement. So, what else... I went to College of the Ozarks for a year. I took a semester off to get married, got married, and then never went back after that. Really due to some reading that I did during that time. I had my entrepreneurial passion reinvigorated and so chose that path. That was about 20 years ago. I went through a lot of business failures, about 10 or 11 business failures over about 4 or 5 years and then landed into Classy Llama, what became Classy Llama, accidentally, and backed into it. I needed to make some extra cash and one of the partners in a previous venture had an agency that subcontracted some work through us. It slowly developed into a thing that was driving revenue consistently. Then I had the next 17 years to learn how to build a team and really run a business and that has been a blessing. I feel very grateful and blessed to have an opportunity to learn those lessons and learn that capability. Been through a lot through that time. And in that process, we started a family, we have five kids now. My mother-in-law lives with us, after her husband passed away about 10 years ago. And so, we have a household of 8. It’s a very full, very active household. I've got kids between 2 and 14 years old. And I've always really tried to prioritize having balance in time and being holistically successful and not just one dimensionally successful like I've seen so many do. I’ve heard so many stories and I've seen so many choose one part of their life where they're going to win and then the other parts are neglected and fail due to neglect.?

Rhett Roberson?

Right.?

Kurt Theobald?

That would be like the chronological version. But the metanarrative, which I always look for, what's beneath the story, what's the theme behind the story? And one of the things that is true about me is that I was forged through my childhood adversity with a drive to create emotionally safe spaces. That's something that I do in business, it's something I try to do in my home and my family, because I didn't experience it. I want those spaces where everybody feels heard and valued and able to contribute and have a voice; that's very important to me. Learning how to do that has been a big challenge because I didn't have it demonstrated for me. It's been a lot of learning, a lot of reading, a lot of mentorship, a lot of mistakes, and learning by failure. But that's been an important thing. I'm also naturally a challenger. I really have always cared about the truth. If you look at my StrengthsFinder, my Enneagram, the Working Genius Widget profile, if you look at any of these personality profiles, I really care about what is true. I don't need to be right. I just care about learning about what's true. I'm willing to challenge, and drive in order to pursue that. I really want to know HOW everything's connected because I really believe that everything IS connected and I want to understand how it all interlaces together. Another key metanarrative is that I am designed to see the world as it could be, not as it is, and drive to achieve that or drive to push for that. That is something that is in my DNA. My dad was that way, is that way. He's a dreamer and a visionary and that's something that I have as well. One other thing that's significant is a decision that I made early in my life that has been really deeply thematic and essential. I’ve made the decision that I expect to be lonely. It actually was a decision. I am going to expect to be lonely in my life. And perhaps early on that was self-protective. But it evolved into almost, maybe it sounds bad, but an invulnerability developed out of that. But it's something true to this day, that I expect to be lonely. It's not that I enjoy being lonely. It's not that I always am lonely, but I expect to be lonely. The invulnerability that it created for me meant that I could stick my neck out in ways others weren't willing to. I could take risks, not just risks financially or whatever else, but risks of judgement. Risks of being torn down or being misunderstood. I could take those risks because rejection was part and parcel to my expectation of loneliness. That enabled me to be much bolder than the average person. I suppose it's something that, in some way, I would recommend. There's a healthy expectation of loneliness. The inverse of that would be that there is value in being willing to be lonely and not prioritizing not being alone over other things that really should be deeper and more important. Things like living true to who you are, as an example. That was an important part that has been essential to me living out loud and living true to who I am, as best I understand who I am. By trying to live true to who you are, given that we are always trying to understand ourselves better and we're getting more of the puzzle pieces, but giving yourself the freedom and taking the risk to try to live true to who you are, even though it might offend other people or bother them or be socially unkempt, I think it accelerates the process of getting to know yourself.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting take. I've never heard it put that way from that direction, the willingness to be lonely or the expectation of loneliness. Almost as a way to focus on authenticity by saying, “I'm going to live as true to what I believe to be the right way to live as possible.” It's like another way of saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's like getting around that fear of rejection by expecting an outcome that could be a traditionally negative thing, loneliness.?

Kurt Theobald?

Right. That makes me think of Ralph Waldo Emerson, and I'm going to hack his phrasing terribly, but I'll paraphrase. He said something to the effective of "To live true to what you believe today. Even if you believe the opposite tomorrow is an act of divinity." And in order to do that, you have to have that permission that you give yourself to expose yourself to the risk of rejection or misunderstanding from others.?

Rhett Roberson?

Another thing that you said really resonated, I think we may have had similar upbringings. My parents separated when I was relatively young, didn't grow up with a lot. And that idea of creating these safe spaces because you want others to have them. That's a big part of this for me, but I had a Zoom call today with someone in the psych safety field. We'd met through a professional consulting group an she just wanted to discuss the subject of psych safety. At one point she asked how I got into this culture work. Whether it's diversity, DEI fields, psych safety, general culture… she worked specifically in DEI fields. Back to what you said about wanting to create safe spaces because you didn't have that safety for yourself, that’s what came to mind after thinking about it. Why was I ever interested in this stuff? I finally came to the conclusion that it was really more about creating a fair shake for people. For someone who didn't have access to a lot, it is creating access for everybody to get a fair shake. It’s interesting to me that all these years later, it shows up in my work. That really resonated with me when you said that.?

Kurt Theobald?

And paradoxically, I also want to create spaces that are extremely unsafe, but unsafe for the contrary activities or the contrary forces to people living true to who they are or growing towards a better understanding of who they are. Things like self-protection, invulnerability, defensiveness, things that block teams from working well together. And block people from moving towards a better understanding of who they are. I don't want to create a space that is safe for people to feel like they're not going to be challenged, in their perspective, in their ideas, in their approach to things. I am so pro-criticism. Most people are afraid of the word criticism. I love criticism. Number one, it's a strength that I have. I can see how things need to be improved. That's one of the things I'm good at, where they're broken, or they're not working as good, as well as they could. But I'm also hungry for it in my own life. I want to be criticized. Why? Because the more lights that shine on you, the better you're going to be able to see what's there and know what's working on what's not. So, I want to create very unsafe spaces for people to hide or where people can protect themselves by tearing others down. I want that to be unsafe. It's so easily misunderstood to say I want to create safe spaces. I want to create spaces where people know that they're safe, that they can talk about how they're feeling, what their perception is, what their experience of reality is, without feeling like they're going to be condemned or torn down for that.?

Rhett Roberson?

Some of that in work scenarios really puts the impetus on you to make sure you're building the team that is capable of upholding your values. Because then you can have those safe spaces. If you are sure that you've brought the right people to the team, then it's a safe place for those people to show up as the people that you brought to the team.?

Kurt Theobald?

Right.?

Rhett Roberson?

I always say, within our environment, we want to hold a culture that makes it uncomfortable to be there if you don't adhere to our culture.?

Kurt Theobald?

Right.?

Rhett Roberson?

That’s it. This isn't a safe space for you to not fit our values.?

Kurt Theobald?

Right.?

Rhett Roberson?

But if this lines up with how you want to do business, well, this is a safe space for you to make mistakes, to try hard things and grow.?

Kurt Theobald?

Yeah, actually, you mentioned DEI. Another ironic thing is that while we have a very diverse organization, even our business, in fact, we just won an award for diversity, I actually want homogeny when it comes to our core values.?

Rhett Roberson?

Sure.?

Kurt Theobald?

It's so important. We talked about alignment, coherent alignment, a team that's aligned with the core values and tightly connected around those is so important. It enables you to create when you have that. I talk about designing cultures a lot. I cannot make a culture happen. It's not within my power to do that. Like you said, you can only invite people in and screen them for carrying those things that are important in that culture. It's the people of that organization, of that team, that will ultimately decide what the culture actually is. All I can do is design the target and then look for people that align with that target and will drive towards it. We have this thing where we call, Classy Llama is the name of the company, but the energetic organization that we are, we call it Llama Nation. We have this phrase it says something like, “to the citizens of Llama Nation, you are the builders of this nation.” It's the constituents that build the nation, that build the organization, that build the culture. I was aware of that early on. And I think it's one of the few things I got right early on. It's very, very, very important to be really, really sharp and not hold back in the interviewing process. To really know what you're getting into, for the benefit of both, because misalignment hurts everybody.?

Rhett Roberson?

Sure.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's something that we're very careful about to this day. I've gotten better at it, being careful about it. But it's something that's very important if you have a target culture. If you really want to create it, then that selection process is so important. But, you come from Organizational Psych, so that's pretty…?

Rhett Roberson?

You're just speaking right to my soul!?

Kurt Theobald?

Right? (Laughs)?

Rhett Roberson?

So, I'm still holding the book here, I really loved the idea and title of the second chapter in the book, Being Happy vs. Feeling Happy. The second question that I've been asking everybody is “What brings you joy?” But can you answer that from the perspective of just a quick brush up on being happy vs. feeling happy? It wasn't a particularly hard to understand concept. Some of the stuff is a little heady. That one was just a good exercise.?

Kurt Theobald?

Pretty straightforward. I'll try to remember what I said. I think I remember the basic concept, it's something that I still subscribe to deeply to this day. It’s attached to resilience. If we are centered on a fundamental belief in our own value, and are focused on the good in our lives, we have the opportunity to be happy even when we don't feel happy. Feelings. The heart is going to do what it's going to do, right? It's something that is annoyingly true in our lives. It's been said about 1000 different ways. Life is composed of trials, difficulties, and crises. It's going to happen. If we depend on how we feel to decide if we're happy, then we're going to be unhappy lots in our lives. I believe in, what I think I probably posited in that chapter, is that it's possible to be happy, consistently, but only when we redefine what happiness means and connect it closer to something like contentedness, or gratitude versus anything related to how we happen to be feeling in the moment. That has been a core part of my life. It is pretty much universal. I had lots of various plans and ambitions and desires in my life and not all of them came to pass. What I planned certainly looked very different than what happened. And I have been happy. In fact, I've started into a book called The Gap and the Gain (https://a.co/d/dcNpMGU ). One of my mentors, and the president of our company, strongly recommended I read it. In that book, in the very introduction, they talked about how only 14% of all adults describe themselves as very happy. They go on to talk about how so many people live in the gap, meaning there's a difference between what they achieved versus the ideal. And I was explaining to my mentor that recommended the book, that I would count myself in that 14% I would absolutely call myself very happy. I said, “except I would call myself ridiculously happy.”?

Rhett Roberson?

Which is probably the upper one percent!?

Kurt Theobald?

Just probably a high achiever. (laughs) No, but I really, it's true. I really feel that and I also live in the gap a lot. The gap that I feel is not so much separation from the ideal as it is... there's a way which is ideal, but I live in the friction between the vision that I have, the things I see that the world could be, how it could happen this way, I see what's possible and the friction between the possible and the reality. And that difference, and this is true of visionaries, visionaries have that blessing and curse. The blessing of being able to see what's possible really clearly. They can taste, touch, feel it, it's so real to them. But the curse is that they then have to live with how everything isn't that way. That is a positive, or it can be a positive and productive tension. A creative tension that then creates the energy that drives them towards the creation of that possible or movement and progress towards it. But it's still very painful to carry it. In that way I live in the gap and it absolutely creates pressure and stress for me. But I also think that is part and parcel to my design. It's part of who I am and it's a tension that I must carry. It's not something I should try to get away from. It's good that I feel that tension because that is part of the visionary's role, to drive humanity towards what is possible and progress towards that. And they carry that pain as a motivator that creates that drive. So, I do live in the gap in that way. But I'm also very, very happy and the book, The Gap and the Gain, is talking about people that are unhappy because they're focusing so much on what they haven't achieved, instead of being grateful for what they have. I think I've struck a fairly good balance on that part. With only one exception maybe, and that is that I have a sense for what I've been called to and that calling has not been fulfilled yet. So there's pressure there and there's a hard patience. I'm always content and never satisfied. And so far in my life, it's a healthy balance.?

Rhett Roberson?

Are you willing to expand on what that calling is??

Kurt Theobald?

It would be difficult to articulate it in English, or any spoken language for that matter, because it's something that I feel, and feelings are hard to translate into words. There is an impact that I haven't had yet. I don't know how I'm going to have that impact. But I've had, I would say by the average evaluation, an unusual life and I think I've learned some things that are significant. And then I have a unique way to express some things. I'm not saying I have I got the cornerstone of any truth or anything like that, but rather, I think I have experience into the way that will reach a certain audience really well. I haven't released that yet in the way that I sense it will be released at some point.?

Rhett Roberson?

I think I understand that. I feel like there's a waiting period for me. Like there's a lot of life left to be lived before I get to share the whole thing and I feel like I need to take a little more in before I'm ready to...?

Kurt Theobald?

Yes.?

Rhett Roberson?

...like, before it's ready to bloom I’ve got to shelter the seeds for a bit longer.?

Kurt Theobald?

The book you're holding is an excellent example of this. I was 24 when I started writing that. I think I published it when I was 25. And it was this surge, because of what had happened up to that point in my life, from about the time I entered fifth grade I remember having this experience. I was about 10 at the time. From that point forward, I observed my peers, on average, I'm not I'm not trying to blanket statement anybody, but as a general experience, I experienced them not taking life very seriously and it drove me insane. I had this deep feeling of the seriousness of life and that we're here on purpose. Let's go after fulfilling that purpose. Whatever it is, let's understand it and go after it. It drove me crazy, and I wanted to understand it so much. Why aren't people having this feeling? Part of the book is me coming to the conclusion that it's because there are fundamental questions that people answer accidentally that need to be answered intentionally. The book was really a lot of frustration that I had pent up. I didn't know how to explain this to people. So, I needed to write it all down and create this manifesto, as it's called, to invite people into a life where they take it seriously. Where they engage and create a framework through which they can engage with the most fundamental questions of life that I then hope will unlock that passion for them to live all-in, all the time. As I say at the very end of the book, as best they can and aligned with who they are. My belief is if we can just get people to engage in that way then I think the world is transformed. So many people try, and I'm not I'm not criticizing this at all, they attack the issues from the outside-in like, “let's attack the problems that are existing, like hunger and homelessness and orphans” and all that - which need help and need support - so like I said, I'm not criticizing, I love that there are people that are focused on that. My calling is to attack it from the other end. Can we get to the root? Why is this the predicate? I'm big on connectedness, and how everything is connected together. ?As I dug deeper and deeper, these were the kind of questions and routes that I came up with. These are some of the things that are behind why the world is a mess and the ways it is a mess. What you're holding is my attempt, my premature attempt, to try to force it. I've never said patience is a gift that I have, but it is a competency I've developed over time. I've just accepted we don't get released on our timeline. I can look back now and go, “Oh, well I'm glad it didn't take off like it did.” I had so much I needed to learn and am still learning. Whereas, before, I very much had an attitude of “I'm going to kick down the door to give what I have to give.” Now it's like, I'm going to focus on continuing to develop myself. To grow my plot of ground. I'm going to focus on that. As that plot may expand, I'll tend that and let things happen organically, no matter how much I still want to knock doors down.?

Rhett Roberson

Yeah, and I think I'm doing the math correctly, too. Classy Llama predates the Llama Manifesto by just a few years.?

Kurt Theobald

Yes. That's right. Yep. Three years.?

Rhett Roberson?

I love the whole reference, I took the book sleeve off the book, but there's great art for the front of the book. And when I came to your office to bump into you and get the book you gave me this year's Llama. (Classy Llama releases a toy llama each year with a different theme) Which is really cool! I told you then that I was going to have to hide it from my daughter. So, you gave me two. I couldn't get the photo of her in time, and I've never seen her do this before, but I brought it home and she was wide-eyed and smiling. She grabbed it and just hugged it.?

Kurt Theobald?

Oh, I love that. Yeah.?

Rhett Roberson?

So, it landed well.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's wonderful to hear.?

Rhett Roberson?

And the llama for this year is named Ren. (He has his own page on the Classy Llama website .)?

Kurt Theobald?

Ren, that's right.?

Rhett Roberson?

And her middle name is Wren.?

Kurt Theobald?

No way.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah, so?

Kurt Theobald?

That's beautiful.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah, so, she loves it.?

Kurt Theobald?

She had it first so.?

Rhett Roberson?

That's true. So, I've got one in my office at work...?

Kurt Theobald?

Perfect.?

Rhett Roberson?

...and then she has one that stays in bed with her.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's amazing.?

Rhett Roberson?

So, the llama brings her joy... I'm going to find a way to bring this back around...?

Kurt Theobald?

Hey, go for it.?

Rhett Roberson?

What brings you joy??

Kurt Theobald?

Well…?

Rhett Roberson?

A little bit of a stretch but here I am.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's okay, that was pretty good. My family brings me joy. I can delightfully report that doing just about anything with my wife brings me joy. We are two peas in a pod. It's wonderful, a great team. We are building a house right now and we're doing it together. We decided to do the general contracting ourselves, which was very intentional because we couldn't find a fit with a general contractor and we realized if we hire a general contractor, we're probably going to really annoy them because we want to get into all the details and understand everything anyway.?

Rhett Roberson?

Just want to test your marriage right at the 20-year mark??

Kurt Theobald?

Yeah, right. And we were aware of that. That a lot of people say, "You build a house, we'll see what happens with the marriage." Well, just this week I said, my wife's name is Jess, I said to her, "You know, I really think that when we get done building this house, I'm going to miss it." I just made that comment, and then later that evening, she said, "I was thinking about that, and I think the reason you're going to miss it is because this has been an opportunity for you and me to work together as a team in one of the most unbridled ways we've been able to." Because in a lot of ways we work together. The business is something we process and discuss all the time. Strategically, and the relationships, and the leadership, we're very involved with that. But in those spaces, there are a lot more people involved. You've got to move at the speed of relationship and flow, and you're constrained, but when it's our house, and we're the general contractors we could just design and choose who we're going to work with and move things forward. It's just been a really gratifying process. But that's just one example of many. We love working together. We love doing everything together. I have five kids. They are a delight to me as well. They're all very unique, of course. So yeah, playing outside, starting a little firepit and talking with the older ones, getting to know them as they mature and have more mature thoughts. That's a joy. Seeing the younger ones be surprised and delighted at the world, pretty typical parenting stuff, but it's not typical to me because this is my experience, right? I'm experiencing this as a dad for the first time so it's delightful to me. It's a real joy. And being home is really sweet for me. That has not always been true for me. As I've settled into that patience, that willingness to wait and let things happen organically, I think I've enjoyed home more and more. And also, as my marriage has matured, and we've worked through challenges, I think most marriages work through various challenges, we've worked through a lot of those and we've won intimacy and trust and delight that comes from that kind of hard work. And that makes the home richer for me. Just being home brings me a lot of joy. I love playing sports, especially soccer. I play on a team with a bunch of guys that are way younger and better than I am. I do love to win, and I hate to lose. So, it’s helpful that I play with guys that are way better. And they put up with me. I love creating music, especially music that like really helps people express what they're feeling and better connect to their hearts and helps them put words to maybe what they're feeling or draws out something that needs to be drawn out. I really don't do much of that right now. I used to do a lot more of it. It's seasons, I'll come back to that season at some point. I also love creating stories, immersive stories. So, I have had these various things that I just work on in the background and when I'm at rest, when I have space, up in the middle of the night, for whatever reason, child just woke up and I can go back to sleep, I'll oftentimes think about the stories that I'm building. There'll be a time when I am able to release those stories and I'm really looking forward to that. I hope those stories are world changing because I am a big believer in the power of story. But that's something that I do joyfully and that I do for delight right now. And I've always really enjoyed creating immersive experiences. For?three or four years in a row we designed this Christmas celebration for the company where we went to the Keeter Center at College of the Ozarks, they have a beautiful venue there, and we converted their lobby, the hallway back to this big banquet hall, and the whole banquet hall into this Renaissance experience. There were a whole bunch of games in the foyer and we had a costume company that came out. We paid for all the costume rentals so people could actually wear Renaissance-era costumes. And for those that didn't want to wear it, we still bought these little throw overs that we gave them so they would still be on theme. We divided everybody into a house. There were four houses, each with their own color, and we pulled from Shakespearean surnames in order to give a name to each of those houses. We had a Lord and Lady for each of the houses and there was a competition and a whole immersive theater experience. That was so much fun for me to create all of that. We created a crest for the kingdom that ruled the four houses, and that crest was imprinted on the chocolate that was on the dessert that was set at the tables. We had phaetons, horse-drawn carriages, not really horse-drawn, of course. We hired these guys to act like guards that drew these little carriages. So, people could be transported from the foyer back to the banquet. Then we had a town crier at the back when you came into the big banquet hall. He would announce names in this horrible Monty Python English accent.?

Rhett Roberson?

How many hours go into this Christmas production??

Kurt Theobald?

Friend, I mean, zero, now. (Laughs) This is something we did in the past, it's gotten simpler since then, but it was a production. I would write the whole script. And then I would talk the team through it that was focused on the whole script. We worked through everything to make it happen. We built an entire castle wall, hand painted the entire thing. There was always a team that was up until the wee hours of the night before because that's what was necessary to make it happen. But...?

Rhett Roberson?

Can't ever go back to a pizza party from there.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's right. But the thing is, the heart behind that is that I wanted to send the message to everybody that went there, that they're worth that level of detail. That they are worth the attendance to the precision and the thoughtfulness that went into that. That was for them and they are worth that. I've wanted to do that more broadly, but this is my own plot of ground. I want these people to experience how valuable they are and that was one of the ways that I could do that. Why? Because no one in their right mind would spend the time, the money, the resources, the energy to do that kind of thing in a business context because nobody expects it. People would have been happy with a whole lot less. We could have just had a nice dinner at the Keeter Center and everyone would have thought that was amazing. "Most companies wouldn't do that, they really care about us." I'm like, "No, it must be more!" Interestingly enough, you know what I said about expecting to be misunderstood? Some people ended up interpreting that as me doing something for me. That I just wanted to create this thing. It was a vision I had, and therefore, I did it because I wanted to create it. That was sort of the way that some people interpreted it. Other people interpreted it great. They interpreted it according to my heart. That it was express value for them. That hurt to be misunderstood, right? To put that much energy into something and have some people miss it. That was painful. But that's part of the deal. It's love, it's an act of love, and love will not always be received well. It will not always be trusted and understood. And part of that is because it's scary to trust love. It's scary to trust the appearance of love. And it's true that the appearance of love is not always love. It's oftentimes exploitation. It's oftentimes driven by some selfish desire. So, I don't look at those people that misunderstood me and go, “How could they!?” Maybe I did in the moment. For a few days was licking my wounds, but I look at that and go, "this is part of what's wrong with the world."?

Rhett Roberson?

And that's the cost of love in general. When we sign up for this, when we sign up to get married to our wives...?

Kurt Theobald?

100% Yep.?

Rhett Roberson?

the only way that bond ends is in pain.?

Kurt Theobald?

100%, there's 100% success rate of being hurt.?

Rhett Roberson

Yeah, that's the only way for it to end and that's what makes it have value, in my opinion. It's the valleys that make the peaks. The lower the valley, the higher the peak.?

Kurt Theobald

Yeah, absolutely. So those are some things that give me joy.?

Rhett Roberson?

I love it. I love it. Good, that was on brand.?

Kurt Theobald?

(laughs) Brought it back!?

Rhett Roberson?

What are some things you do when you need to recharge??

Kurt Theobald?

You know, the funny thing is whenever I get a question like this, I almost get nervous. I'm like, “Am I going to be able to come up with enough things I do to recharge?” Because I think it's probably...?

Rhett Roberson?

You mean the guy who's up in the middle of the night writing stories with no immediate plan of release??

Kurt Theobald?

Right. That guy. I was up at 3:30 yesterday morning, couldn't go back to sleep. That's just how it is. I think it's honest to admit that I probably don't recharge as much as would be healthy for me, but with that said I do think I'm making progress in that area. Writing is a way that I recharge. I've been keeping a journal since I was 11. For almost 30 years now, I've been keeping a journal. And since 2004, it was November of 2004, I started a professional journal. That has been a continuous act where I make contributions on average of about twice a week. That's part of my recharge because it helps me to process. I'm fairly confident that if I wanted to talk to anyone as much as I talked to my journal, I'd run out of people to talk to and so it's just my way of working through things and it's very recharging for me to be able to get it all out. Steadily, when you make a to-do list, you get it all on the to-do list and it's captured there. And you're able to think through what you needed to do, and you got it all figured out and now you can go to sleep. I oftentimes write right before I go to sleep because I get it all out and then I'm able to sleep.?

Rhett Roberson?

Well, that's a true indication of a recharge if you can lay down immediately and rest.?

Kurt Theobald?

100%. So, I do that. I also play soccer. I continue to engage in athletics. I’d almost say working out, but I don't really do that to recharge. I think it might recharge me, but it's not why I do it. It might recharge me. I do feel tired at the end of it, but I think I end up having more energy on the days I work out. So, there's that. Being home, home is a recharger for me, and it's just such a like I mentioned it's such a safe space. It's just lovely. On the mornings where I get to have breakfast with my wife, sitting at the table, the kids usually have had breakfast already, we have our cup of Earl Grey tea. We play a game of Yahtzee. We have these kicks. We're on a Yahtzee kick right now. I don't know why I play Yahtzee, she beats me more often than not, even though it's mainly a chance game. You can improve your odds but… I hate losing, but it just shows how much I love her because it still recharges me even though I lose.?

Rhett Roberson?

You're starting your day with losing and you still continue to come back.?

Kurt Theobald?

(Laughs) I’m a loser from the beginning of the day! (Laughs) She is gifted and capable in all things edible, cooking, baking. She makes these scones and they're just amazing. I know those things seem so simple, but those are recharging things. It's a ritual, right? You have these rituals. Some people get up and they have this coffee ritual. We get up and we have this ritual that's, very recharging for me. I think that's another metanarrative, having rhythms of rest, rhythms of comfort, is part of that recharging. Part of that restoration. What’s helpful is that you know it's coming. It's not haphazardly episodic, it's coming, and you know when it's going to happen and it's so nice. The ritual of getting up in the mornings, if I don't take a shower in the morning my day is not as good. It's harder for me. This why it's part of my expectation and this is part of the prep, and I go through this process and it's dependable and it's predictable. It's a ritual and I think that’s fundamental humanity, we need these rituals that keep us centered and familiar of what's going on. That recharges, it certainly does me.?

Rhett Roberson?

For sure. How would your colleagues describe you??

Kurt Theobald?

When talking about how other people describe me, I will tell you the very first, the very first adjective that came to my mind was almost untenably intense at times.?

Rhett Roberson?

He says, leaning in.?

Kurt Theobald?

(laughs) As I burrow my gaze into your eyes. (laughs) You got me. And historically, I would argue it's very nearly untenably intense sometimes. But, historically, I have been so much worse. So, I think people should be thankful for where I'm at now, because it's less often and I do a better job of gilding my intensity with warmth. That is a definite descriptor, but also, predictable things like, as a visionary, a driving force, very direct, articulate, they would call me smart, risk-taking. Interestingly, they would describe me as intimidating to those who don't know my heart. And I think that's true. I don't like that. I do really take some significant, very intentional measures to try not to be that way because I want to be approachable. But I still do come across that way, sometimes. Also, my colleagues that I work with would describe me as really silly, and that's 100% true. And I love that they would likely describe me that way. Creative, hot or cold, never lukewarm. Dynamic, and a sprinter. That's my list.?

Rhett Roberson?

That's a good list. It's very thorough.?

Kurt Theobald?

Oh, good. I'm glad you think so.?

Rhett Roberson?

So, that’s how your colleagues would be describing you at work, can you describe, then, in your words, the work that you do??

Kurt Theobald?

The work that I do… I always complicate questions. I should say, I often complicate questions. I’ll try really hard not to complicate it because partly what you mean is like, okay, I have a vocation, I have this business. What does it do? In the business, we're a tech company, and we do technology enablement. So, it's a services business for industrial companies in middle America. Basically, between the mountain ranges, that's our region. We work a lot with industrial companies, companies that sell parts, automotive sector, heavy duty manufacturing, basically, all the guts of society that most people don't even think about. I have a real heart for the those that go unnoticed, or those that are on the margins. We're talking about manufacturing. It’s like 50% of our economy and there's so much value to be created there. I love it. We're here in the middle of that region, and so many organizations that are providing these services, technology-oriented services, have a hard time relating to the mentality of folks in this culture. I think we have a fairly unique opportunity to be able to earn trust and introduce technology that is scary to a lot of the folks. That's uncomfortable for a lot of the folks that are in these industries. It is a passion for me. I want the companies and the business owners and their teams in those sectors, I want them to win. I think it's important that they win. Because businesses have actually, since the industrial revolution, become increasingly influential in culture, and I want to be an influencer of culture. I really think there's a lot of good out there. Everybody has their weaknesses and their imperfections, but generally the culture that is carried by these industrial companies is something I want more of for the United States and for the world. So if we can help them be successful, if we can help take them forward and over the digital hurdle and the technology hurdle, help them be more efficient, more productive, then we're helping them to be more abundant and when they're in a healthy, growing, abundant place that means that their values are going to multiply as they bring more employees into their organization and as they acquire other companies. There’s this deep, almost metaphysical thing that happens with business where it permeates its values, for good or evil, into the world. And so being in business I… it could be characterized as me trying to give myself more meaning than I have, but I really believe that, at least I'm living a good illusion, if it is true, but business is just as much a part of making a better world as a nonprofit organization or any other player. I think they're all important. Each has its own vector of support for making progress, but I think that this is so influential. I'm very passionate about this. We have this technology team that’s very capable, and I want to focus those energies on companies that I believe are going to make the world a better place. And again, I'm stereotyping, but I think it's worthwhile to do so. Companies in middle America that are in the industrial verticals, I think generally are going to make the world a better place as I see it. So, I want to support their success. That’s what our company does. And more specifically, it's things like data management, creating better data flows, integrations between systems, adoption of new technology, getting the team to adopt technology. I think we're very good at this. One of our claims to fame or one of our key value propositions is our ability to be relational with people that aren't technical and invite them in and bring them into adoption. There are lots of solutions out there, but one of the things we do that's relatively special, is we're really good at helping companies, one, select the right software for the objectives that they have and, two, to get the value out of it. Because software is complicated. And a lot of times if they don't have that competence in the organization, or they're early in their adoption of technology, it's so easy to pick up something like Salesforce, or some e-commerce platform, or a CRM, or a human resources platform and then you adopt it and you use only the surface level features. You don't really see how you can use those deeper things or how to fully engage it. These are things I've experienced. We adopted Salesforce four or five years ago. It took us two or three years to really embrace it. This is the same thing over and over again. I'm seeing these organizations as they adopt technology because of a small set of features and there are all these other features that they don't realize can help them. That's another part of what we do. But my work is designing cultures and inviting people to build those cultures and benefit from them. That's really the work that I do. So, I described the work that Classy Llama does just now, which I'm very passionate about, but my work is agnostic to the application, to the functional application.?

Rhett Roberson?

Sure. You touched on it a little bit earlier. But how did you get into this line of work??

Kurt Theobald?

Yeah. I was in the middle of failing at a bunch of stuff and needed cash. One of the partners in a previous venture was also a partner with a marketing firm, a digital agency, and they needed some work subcontracted. We had the chops to do it. We were like, yeah, we can do that. Why? Because we need the cash. We started doing some contract work. Then another company said, “Can we subcontract technical work to you guys?” Then suddenly, we had a business on our hands and the other stuff wasn't really taking off. So, we just cut stuff off and focused on this. The ironic thing about it is, that was actually a really difficult thing for me. It was difficult to have this be the thing that took off, because I didn't want a services business. I wanted a product company. I liked product because of the opportunity for it to scale in a nonlinear way. And instead, I ended up in a service business where your revenue and your profit are connected directly to people growth. You have to hire more people and grow the team and that's relatively slow. The beautiful thing about services businesses is oftentimes it's very low capital requirement, which was good for me because I didn't have any capital. I knew how to raise capital, but I didn't want to raise capital again. I’d just been through bankruptcy, and I didn't want to do that again. I really resented the success that I had early on.?

Rhett Roberson?

Interesting.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's another story for another time. That's how I got started.?

Rhett Roberson?

Gotcha! Who's the best leader or boss that you've had the opportunity to work with? What made them so good??

Kurt Theobald?

My memory is terrible, first of all, for a lot of things. I can remember numbers really well, but events and stuff like that, are very hard for me to remember. So, I'll answer this question, probably forgetting other leaders I've worked with, but a leader that, at least, has been phenomenal started out as a mentor, then became a board member and now is the president of the company. That's Paul Ebisch.

He was very important for me personally. I can talk about how he's good as a leader in general, but it was really valuable for me because one thing he's good at is seeing past the weaknesses of a person and to see the value of what's inside of them. I needed that during the time that he was mentoring me and came onto the board because I was a very misunderstood person. A lot of the reason that I was misunderstood was because of my immaturities, because of my rough edges. The way that the expression of my visionary nature and my intensity came out, it was understandably misunderstood. But Paul has got this amazing stability. He's one of those people that really has the central gravity inside of him. He knows who he is, feels confident in his value and doesn't need anyone's approval for him to feel okay within himself. And so that was very important, because I think I oftentimes will aggravate insecurity in people, and he doesn't have a whole lot of that. He was able to just abide with me and when I would rant and “Grrr”, he could just be listening and if I had criticisms that I delivered to him in really unkempt ways, he was okay with that. He’s a strong person, and I needed that, I needed that leadership in my life. It meant I didn't have to be the strongest person in the room, and I really leaned into him in that way because I could see that he could carry that. He's a wonderful leader, in general, he's very good at enabling and equipping the people he's growing and it needs to be like highly motivated, high capacity people. That's what I'll call them, people that are really engaging in the process of growth. He's not good at people that he's got to drag.?

Rhett Roberson?

Sure.?

Kurt Theobald?

He's good at giving them those little touches and guides to push them in the right direction and unlock them in key moments. He does not want to have to hold anyone's hand, but he's really good at that. What else about Paul?.. He’s really good in a crisis. His crisis management is amazing. He has principles by which he operates. I would never want him to have to run a thing over a long period of time, just crank the wheel, he would die 1000 deaths doing that, but throw him into a crisis or a new space, and he'll work it and he'll find a path. He does that really well. He's really good at navigating innovation, which is connected to that because innovation is an ongoing crisis.?

Rhett Roberson?

Right? ??

Kurt Theobald?

And, just, business management, he's really solid on strategy and business management. He has a lot of knowledge and experience and he's done a lot of reading in that way. He's navigated us through some rough, difficult business situations that were crises that required a high business acumen and he's helped carry us through in times that I simply couldn't have.?

Rhett Roberson?

That's really cool. As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up??

Kurt Theobald?

President of the United States.?

Rhett Roberson?

True story??

Kurt Theobald?

True story. I was in fourth grade and they asked me. I made sure I sat in the mayor's seat when they gave us a tour of the courthouse. The guy went around to everybody and when it was my turn I stood up, “President of the United States!” True story, no lie.?

Rhett Roberson?

The intensity has been there the whole way through.?

Kurt Theobald?

Exactly.?

Rhett Roberson?

That's a good one. What book has been most impactful in your life??

Kurt Theobald?

When I was growing up, I was probably eight or nine when this started. I read about young King Solomon, when he was asked by God, “What do you want? Ask for anything and I'll give it to you.” and he answers, “Give me wisdom that I might lead your people well.” He could ask for anything and he asked for wisdom. My dad told me that story, and I read it later. It was so profound to me and even more profound after I read it and really got into it more deeply. What a humble thing to ask for. He must have been so scared to ask for that. He's got the job of leading a nation! (Laughs) He doesn't ask for women, doesn't ask for money, doesn’t ask for fame and fortune, he asked for wisdom. When I heard that story, it impressed upon me even at a young age. So that was the thing that I started praying for daily. And because there were all those other scriptures that I was taught where if you ask for wisdom, you'll receive it. I was like, “Okay, I'm going to ask, I'm just going to, I'm going to go after it.” As part of that I started to read Proverbs (https://a.co/d/4ZZZQSn ), which is the most influential book in my life. I read and reread and reread and reread and reread that book. I don't know how many times. I probably missed out on a lot of other good stuff because I really focused right there for a lot of my childhood. That has been the most influential in my life. It gave me a practical framework for life. It’s part of what I appreciate about Proverbs. It's so practical, it talked about money, it talked about women, talked about wisdom, and success, and pursuit, and foolishness, and the wages of foolishness. It was just really, really helpful. That's the most influential book in my life.?

Rhett Roberson?

I feel like that answer almost leads into the next one. But I'll tee it up in case it is not exactly aligned. What was the most important lesson you've learned so far in life??

Kurt Theobald?

When I was young, when I was just getting started in my professional life, probably before that as well, I felt like I needed to have all the answers. I read Inc. Magazine way too much growing up. Every time I read a story about an entrepreneur, it felt like these people have it together and they have all the answers and they're the type A personality. They’re on the front of the cover in really prim suits. I just thought I had to have all the answers. After 8 or 9 or 10 or 11, brutal failures I got broken. At that point, I came to the realization that I needed to be broken, it was important. I submitted to a number of various experiences that broke me over and over and over again. Different things would break inside of me that needed to break. In business, it was my pride for believing that I was God's gift to business, because I was not! I had to learn just like everybody else and go through the process. I hit this other point where I realized that being broken isn't an event that I need. Although it's true, there are events and moments where you get broken and it's really good, what I really need is to be in a constant state of brokenness. And in that state of brokenness is this, like, rent humility. I am always becoming, always deeply needy, and always only at some small fractional point of the potential, and of the full understanding. I need to constantly be learning and listening and receiving and being reshaped and reformed. Because I'm so far from complete and the only way that you can be reformed, if you think of it like clay, you can't reform clay if it's not soft, in that way breakable is the wrong word because it's not rigid. But that's the idea of brokenness for me. That I’m constantly ready to be molded. That's not to say there aren't things that are at my core that have been tested by fire. Referencing clay again, if it's put through fire, it gets rigid. There are probably some things in me that are axioms for me. These are axiomatically solid from nature. I pivot from these things. For instance, that idea that sacrifice is a symptom of love. It is an indicator of love. That's an axiom for me that I live from, but by and large, I want to be shapeable, reformable. I never want that to not be true. I never want to be too old, to where I'm not being reformed and reshaped. So, that state of brokenness is something that is probably the most important lesson that I've learned because it has enabled me to grow faster than the average person. That’s something that I constantly subscribe to. It connects into this idea of challengeability. I believe that challengeability is the single greatest indicator of the velocity of a person's growth. Just how challengeable are they? I want to be the most challengeable person out there. I don't just want to receive criticism, I want to go out of my way to get criticized, tear me up, chew me up and spit me out. I'll listen, even if you have to say it mad. I want to hear the good that you have to offer me. That's something that I advocate for, and I want other people to experience. But again, the only way someone can be that challengeable is that they've gotten solid on some deep things inside of them, because otherwise, people can't handle that kind of criticism. I want to help equip them to get solid on the inside so they can then be that challengeable. The most important lesson I ever learned, though, is the importance of being in an omnipresent state of brokenness.?

Rhett Roberson?

I love it. And I think, to your point earlier, my thought is that there are these common ideas, and the reason I'm not ready to talk about it yet is like I'm still absorbing these things, but there are these ultimate and all-encompassing truths. I'm interested in how certain similar ideas exist in different areas, this state of brokenness creates opportunity for vulnerability and a tenderness and there's a Buddhist teacher, Chogyam Trungpa, he talks about the brokenhearted warrior. In your book, you talk about the necessity of being called to be a warrior. But he talks about the necessity to have broken heartedness to approach the work with tenderness and how that drives the warrior to be better and understand the cost of the work of the warrior.?

Kurt Theobald?

So good.?

Rhett Roberson

I'm interested in the way that all these things overlap. This is that universal truth idea that I was getting at.?

Kurt Theobald?

Universal themes!? When you start collecting you see a thing that begins to feel solid.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah. Try to pack them away.??

Kurt Theobald?

That's really good.?

Rhett Roberson?

What advice would you give young professionals entering the workforce??

Kurt Theobald?

Quick advice to young professionals… This advice is due to the state of society in the United States, at least right now. And that is the advice is... Stop looking for a job. Start looking for ways to create value, because we've got way too many employees and not enough value creators. The world needs value creators. That's one. Two, do not get shackled by incentives. Live below your means so that you have the opportunity to choose your path and not become enslaved in a job that isn't true to who you are. So important.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yep. Absolutely.?

Kurt Theobald?

It's the new slavery.?

Rhett Roberson?

And it is self-induced.?

Kurt Theobald?

100%. So that's it. That's all I got on that one.?

Rhett Roberson?

What are you most proud of??

Kurt Theobald?

My marriage! 20 years next week.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah, man. Congratulations.?

Kurt Theobald?

It's a good marriage, too. It's not like we're barely hanging in there. Which I'm grateful for. I don't say that with any with any sense of like...?

Rhett Roberson?

What's the trick??

Kurt Theobald?

Man, my wife and I have gone ‘round and ‘round on that. We're like, why? And it's with pain in our hearts. Why are so many other marriages struggling? And we struggle, too. We struggled too. We have struggled a lot. It's bearing through fire, that is actually the key. It is that you're willing to bear through the fire and stay soft. We talked about soft heartedness and broken heartedness. You talked about hurt, you’ve got to be ready to hurt a lot. I also think that if you don't really engage with the sacredness or the holiness of the covenant of marriage, you're probably sunk. Because it starts with that. This is a covenant. This is something deep, it's rooted. It meant something whenever we entered into this, and so I cannot shrug it off. I can't give up when it's hard. Because at a very deep, almost identity level, I have committed to this. Another big thing is that you don't expect marriage to be about what's in it for you. Some people think it's a trap, and it's a good trap. It's a trap I want people to fall into. Marriage is a good trap because it gives people the opportunity to get burned. I mean the best way possible, like the fire that refines gold, right? I believe people are gold, but they are gold that has stuff that's in there, that needs to get worked out. The heat churns that gold that brings the junk to the surface. If you're willing to let it, again, you’ve got to be soft, to let that junk come to the surface so you can scoop it off and you're going to be pure as a result of that pressure and that heat. Well, marriage is a furnace! I'd rather people go into it recognizing marriage as a furnace. The benefit is that you're going to get your butt kicked and it gives you an opportunity to become a better person, because you get your butt kicked and you learn how to be the servant you were designed to be as a result. You can shed all this selfishness, all this pride, all this self-protection, if you will let it burn you up and burn the hay, wood, and stubble that isn't good for you. That will then leave the gold behind and you can grow on whatever little is left. That's what marriage is. I've been through a lot of that and I'm happy to continue going through it because it hurts so good! So I’m proud of my marriage! I’m proud of my kids, super proud of my kids, love my kids so much. And my family, how we operate as a team. We are very intentional about it. I feel really good about how we're doing that. We're not getting it all right, but I feel good about it and I feel proud of that. The business that I've worked with others to build from scratch, I'm proud of that. Not just because the business says “Hey, I'm a successful entrepreneur”, or whatever. That's not it. It's actually the culture and the relationships and the community and the safety that exists there. I've had so many years of doubt where I wasn't sure if it was going to pan out or if I was stupid for even trying to achieve this. But now I engage and I'm like, “I think we've created something really special.” So that's amazing and I'm proud of that. And then my own growth. I've overcome a whole lot of ignorance, a whole lot of immaturity, bad brokenness, wrong thinking, imperfection. I've worked through a lot of that and grown through a lot of that and I'm really proud of that journey. I’ve grown with tons of help from lots of places. It's not like me doing all of it, but I'm very proud of the growth that I've experienced and the journey I've been on.?

Rhett Roberson?

Very cool, beautiful answers. Final question. How do you hope the world is better for having you??

Kurt Theobald?

Well, first of all, a huge indicator for me is whether those that I influenced, cardinally my children, create multiples of the values that I create in my life? One thing I've surrendered is that I'm going to create my potential in my own lifetime. A lot of people live for that. I think if I'm really going to live a sacrificial life, the grand majority of the value I create needs to be indirectly through others that I poured into, posthumously. Those I've poured into and influenced will move us, as humanity, closer to a world rooted in love. I hope that I have had that impact. I hope I make it easier for people to build businesses and organizations while still winning in their marriages and families at the same time. We call that holistic prosperity. I want people to win to the max in every area of their lives and not neglect or sacrifice any critical part of their lives for the sake of another. I hope I inspire and equip lots of people to ask the most important questions and wrestle with those questions, to take themselves seriously enough to work through the things that block them from living and leading like only they can. And I hope that I challenge every person to happen TO the world. A lot of people have the world, and things, happen to them. They're kind of reactive to it. I want to inspire people and demonstrate what it looks like to happen TO the world. And I want to inspire people to know that they are leaders, at least of themselves. I believe every person is a leader, at least for themselves. That's part of it. If you're going to lead yourself, that means they're going to happen to the world. That means you can't let insecurity get in your way of doing what you think is true, what you think is aligned with who you are, going through that brokenness, going through that learning. I want to challenge every person to be a person that leads themselves and happens to the world. If I can do those things, I'll have fulfilled broadly, in some sense, what I was designed for.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah. That's awesome. And so well thought out and well-articulated. I love that you are so intentional with your existence.?

Kurt Theobald?

Me too.?

Rhett Roberson?

Truly, it's really nice to see. We've gone a little over time here. I know that you're very good with your time boundaries. So, I want to be respectful of that. But I also want to take the time to say thank you very much.?

Kurt Theobald?

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, I hope it creates value for others.?

Rhett Roberson?

Yeah. Me too.?

Kurt Theobald?

I hope it created value for you.?

Rhett Roberson?

It absolutely did. AND so far only you and Jackie Stiles have provided me with a souvenir for one of these get togethers, so.?

Kurt Theobald?

Oh, the llama? (laughs)?

Rhett Roberson?

I got a book and a llama out of it.?

Kurt Theobald?

There you go.?

Rhett Roberson?

I'm going to have a nice trophy case at the end of this.?

Kurt Theobald?

That's awesome. That'd be fun, take a picture of that.?

Rhett Roberson?

Well, thank you very much, have a good one!

Books:

The Llama Manifesto - Kurt Theobald

The Gap and the Gain - Dan Sullivan

Proverbs - King Solomon