022. The People Leader vs. Business Leader Debate

This week, I invited two friends to come in and talk about the perception that People leaders aren’t adequately business-oriented. Below is an edited transcript of our conversation.?

Jennifer Kim: Stacey & Andrew, thanks for joining me! We’re gathered because of some recent Linkedin posts that sparked some controversy… But I know both of you are thoughtful people, so our goal here is to get into the nuances that’s harder to do online, in the hopes of helping our readers take away some insights about the People space. We’ll go chronological and get started with you, Andrew, telling us a bit about your post.

Andrew Bartlow: Yeah, the post led with the headline that most senior HR executives should NOT be paid like their C-suite peers. In fact, most HR executives shouldn't be part of the C-suite.

Jennifer Kim: Yep, that’s pretty spicy! But you gotta do what you gotta do to make the Linkedin algorithm work for you, I respect it.

Andrew Bartlow: Yeah… I know it was a click-baity headline, but the longer post did try to explain the contours and nuances around the topic. And the point was to draw attention to how we, in HR, can be better and have more agency by being more focused on the business.?

Most people did read the post and were supportive, but some commenters had obviously not read it and were quick to jump to conclusions!?

Jennifer Kim: What, on the Internet? That’s surely never happened before ?? OK, let’s switch gears over to Stacey, who also wrote a post that continued the discussion.??

Stacey Nordwall: I actually had multiple things on my mind at the time, and Andrew’s post was just one of them. But I was especially thinking about another post that said, “People leaders only lead with their hearts, not their heads, and they just don't have business acumen.” And I don’t think this is helpful. It’s like, are you boiling down what HR leaders are to “people who like other people”? Like there’s no other skill or anything behind it?

Jennifer Kim: Right, like HR isn’t “real” work and not worthy of respect.?

Stacey Nordwall: Yeah, and then there’s a trend of senior People leaders leaving in-house roles, and companies saying they have a hard time finding enough qualified VP/CPO candidates. And another trend of leaders from other parts of the business coming into those roles without having any HR background or really, any HR experience at all. And it seems like it is considered acceptable for almost any executive to lead the people function if HR is just considered “people who like people.” But this wouldn’t be the case with any other function.

Jennifer Kim: It’s also not a coincidence that People Ops/HR is one of the few business functions with a large proportion of women, but I digress… Keep going, Stacey.

Stacey Nordwall: Yeah, so my initial thought was, ”This is nonsense.” But then I got curious about it, wondering, “Is this actually true?” Is it true that HR leaders lack business acumen, and can be replaced by any generic business leader? It’s also frustrating, and my post was about calling out this narrative. Where is it coming from? Is it helpful or harmful?

Jennifer Kim: I think what I'm hearing from you is questioning the underlying assumption, that HR leaders lack business acumen. Maybe it’s true, maybe it’s not, but the narrative seems to be getting pushed hard these days.

Stacey Nordwall: Yeah, and this is what I wanted to ask you two! We’ve heard for a long time that HR needs to be more strategic, be more involved with Finance and BizOps, and be more data-driven.

But it’s interesting, because to me, it feels like a red herring sometimes. I saw another post today–?

Jennifer Kim: We’re all spending too much time on Linkedin, huh? ??

Stacey Nordwall: Haha yeah. So it said, “These are the 12 HR metrics you MUST track and you MUST care about” and it was retention, engagement, time-to-hire, the usual. But it made me wonder if we’re starting from 10 feet behind the starting line by focusing on metrics that don’t actually always matter. It’s like a red herring, because we’re training HR people to be defensive, like “I’m going to be asked about X metric today” not because it’s actually helping them in their role. What are we missing out on by jumping straight to metrics? What do you guys think?

Andrew Bartlow: I heard a quote from Kelli Dragovich this morning and wrote it down – “Those who don't understand something tend to generalize.” And I think that's true for people outside HR talking about HR.

When an outsider doesn’t really understand the role of HR, they’re going to generalize about stuff that’s visible to them. I think for many of us in HR, we’re always looking to always learn and grow, and we know we should be “strategic” and have a “seat at the table.” But so many of us don't really know what that looks like, so we jump to “be data-driven.”

Jennifer Kim: Yes, it’s actually a minor flag for me when an early-stage startup recruiter or HR person – and I’m talking like sub-50 employees here – tells me they’re “data-driven.” Like what data? That’s a talking point that could make sense in a corporate setting but in small startups, can be a canned answer that serves as a thought-terminating cliché.?

It’s like, everybody’s telling HR to be more business-oriented, and they prescribe “be more data-driven!” But that’s more about them not understanding what’s actually important in the People function.?

Andrew Bartlow: Knowing what's important at this company vs. that company, where you’re at this year vs. last year – all of that is business acumen!?

So I agree with you Stacey, what’s more popular in the discourse are shorter soundbites, but we need discussions like this. Very few people know something well enough to articulate the contours, boundary conditions, exceptions, and limitations – hence all the generalities.

Jennifer Kim: Right, and the People space is especially prone to wannabe “thought leaders,” because well, everyone has been an employee before and can make up enough stuff that can vaguely sound like something.

Andrew Bartlow: But with the problems of this space, the answers are largely that “it depends.” So I’ve spent a lot of time and effort on writing a book about it, building an education program, to encourage people to ask the questions and be more thoughtful about decision making.

Jennifer Kim: Says the man who just admitted to clickbait tactics on Linkedin! I tease, I tease :)

Andrew Bartlow: Oh, 100%. I will use it to my advantage!

Jennifer Kim: As we all do. Actually, this is sparking a new thought for me as we’re discussing metrics and whether HR leaders have business acumen. Sure, valid question. But maybe that’s part of a broader question, whether companies have People acumen.

It’s almost as if… our corporate culture and practices are severely lacking in People standards that unlocks the true potential of our organizations. And the disproportionate amount of responsibility and blame for this gap gets put on HR leaders – to become more “business-oriented,” when it’s the foundation that’s not enough “people-oriented.”

Stacey Nordwall: Yeah, I think it comes down to People function just not being valued. That’s why so many senior HR leaders are so tired and leaving the field entirely! They’re tired of being in organizations where they can try to be everything, bring all the business acumen, strategy, etc. but it just doesn’t matter.

Andrew Bartlow: I blame the hiring managers. I had another spicy post awhile back that said CEOs don’t know what good looks like… this is especially true at startups, where CEOs don’t know what good looks like in any function. How could a 20-something freshly equipped with VC money know? That’s very different at Procter & Gamble, General Electric, etc. They do know what good looks like, because they’ve seen the good, bad, and the mediocre enough times.?

So it’s the startup founders who often generalize, to the stuff that’s trendy, or sounds good on the surface, about employee engagement or whatever.

Stacey Nordwall: Yes, and I think that’s why a lot of startups think they can put any random person in a People role, assuming, “Oh, they’ll just pick it up and be able to run everything.” But I don’t think that’s a good idea, to be honest.

Jennifer Kim: Yeah, I think it's pretty rare for it to succeed. What I HAVE seen is outsiders coming into a People role… arrogant, then awhile into the job, realize, “Oh this is actually very hard.” Oops.

Andrew Bartlow: So I lean on Dave Ulrich’s model of HR, which explains how different People leader jobs are primarily focused on different things, e.g. internal communications, talent acquisition, process/productivity optimization, etc. depending on the industry/size/strategy. And those hiring People leaders don’t usually get this right.?

That's how Office Managers and EAs can sometimes get promoted into Heads of People quickly, because the focus at a small startup is on coordination or administration, and the CEO is actually the one making all the decisions. So it doesn’t really matter who’s in that People role or their background, as long as they’re doing it the founder’s way.

Jennifer Kim: Yeah, I think we have different folks in the space trying to solve this problem around the People leader talent pool from different angles. My goal is to teach the companies to do this, from the earliest-stages, so they do know what good looks like and are set up for success. And with your Accelerator program Andrew, you’re focusing on helping these People leaders level up in their business acumen.

Andrew Bartlow: Yes, we’re helping People leaders answer the question, “How can I be more strategic?”?

?Jennifer Kim: And the answer is….?!

Andrew Bartlow: The answer is, work on the right stuff!

Jennifer Kim: Right, the hard part is that there’s no one right answer, it’s all dependent on the size, stage, industry. Your specific needs, personal fit with the weird quirks of your founders – all of that! It’s about whether you can clearly see the problem in front of you, and whether you can diagnose it correctly and solve for it.

Andrew Bartlow: Yes, but I'd suggest that many HR professionals often jump to solutions. It’s like we all have our bag of favorite tricks, whether that’s manager training or DEIB, implementing processes and practices without considering the context enough. Instead, we should be asking, “What outcomes are we trying to drive?”?

I have so many examples of HR “pet projects” gone wrong… One was with a client that was trying to turn around their business. They had high turnover, were cash-strapped, and employees were frustrated with lack of direction and clarity from the top. When I reached out to their HR leader to explore how to help, they kept saying, “I’m so busy. I don’t have time to think about another project.” So I asked, “Well, can you tell me what is the most important thing that you’re working on right now??

Jennifer Kim: Let me guess… evaluating/implementing a new random vendor??

Andrew Bartlow: Their response was, “I’m trying to get the CEO to sign off on a new learning management system.”

Jennifer Kim: Ahhhhh ??

Andrew Bartlow: Yeah, it was a waste to spend money on that when the company was already bleeding cash. When I tried to be curious by asking, “Help me understand, how does that LMS help your organization right now?” They replied, “Well, I really believe in learning and development.” OK sure, there’s a chance that L&D might help the organization, but the sequencing and decision-making was massively out of touch with what was going on. Unsurprisingly, this person departed not long after.

HR often has this prioritization problem, we strand ourselves on “HR island” by implementing our playbook or “bag of HR tricks” without thinking about what really needs to be done at our organization, right now. And often it’s because they are trying to do too much HR-specific work and doing it all themselves.?

Something that would be really helpful is for HR to take a “Chief of Staff” mindset to help their organization clearly articulate priorities, which drives performance and productivity.

Stacey Nordwall: Interesting you bring up Chief of Staff. In my case, I am able to do a lot of it with my founders, like coach them and help them think through things, but it’s because I have a good relationship with them. But it can be really challenging to get to that point, especially at early-stage companies, when you come into a sh*t show, with so much to do. Like, it’d be nice to be strategic, but also, we don’t have a parental leave policy and that needs to happen NOW because someone’s about to go on leave.??

Jennifer Kim: Right, because the other leaders of the company don’t understand the People function, so they can’t help either.

Stacey Nordwall: It actually makes me sad to hear how so many HR leaders are so frustrated, because they feel like they’re trying so hard to break down a wall between them and the rest of the company.

Jennifer Kim: So in starting to tie things together, it sounds like we’re pointing to a chicken-or-the-egg problem, where Stacey is saying, HR leaders get tired, even cynical, and they’re saying, “I’m tired of trying to build a relationship with the CEO to get taken seriously.”?

But Andrew is saying more like, “That’s why we should focus on the business case.” As in, the current way isn’t working, because both sides are trying to be understood, but not understand. And People leaders who are overly focused on relationship-building maybe don’t quite realize that’s not going to produce results they want. Your best bet as a People leader is to do the work of educating them through the business acumen lens.?

Andrew Bartlow: I agree, and support a lot of what Stacey shared. There is real frustration, and people are really trying. So I’d encourage people, whenever possible, control what you can. And that’s your own behavior, your own prioritization.?

And I’d push back on the idea that somebody's too busy to strategize. Nope, you're just choosing not to block 1-2 hours. If you really can’t find an hour or two, I don’t think I can help you.?

I think the instinct to “build a relationship” with a senior leader by being nice to them, hoping to spend more time with them and being liked… that’s just one source of influence and power. I think HR people lean on trying to be “of service” and being liked, but sometimes it’s a lot more effective to be direct and tough.

Jennifer Kim: All right, final question for you two: If you had a magic wand and could make a clear message/advice to every People leader out there, what would you tell them?

Stacey Nordwall: I’d say… take it upon yourself to seek out exposure to what's happening in other parts of the business, like Sales or Marketing, to understand the challenges being faced that you might not be aware of.

Andrew Bartlow: I encourage them to today, take 20 minutes and one piece of paper, write out a short list of what you think are the most important things that your company should be working on right now. Chances are, that's something like cost and reduce burn, or increase sales and revenue, complete a merger, or raise money, etc. Then, come up with a short list of things that your team can work on to most directly affect that. Then, go talk to the other senior leaders to get their feedback, “Would this be helpful? Will this drive revenue?”?

THAT is strategy. It doesn’t take an MBA/McKinsey background. You don’t need permission to be a leader.

Jennifer Kim: I like it. My turn, and I'll add on to Andrew’s recommendation: If someone were to say, “Ok, just block out 20 minutes… I really tried and I still can’t do it!” I’d tell them it’s ok to admit you need help. Don’t deny that you’re struggling and get stuck in a shame spiral. We all have to start from somewhere, and there are resources out there.? Sometimes stepping up as a leader means taking the steps to provide yourself to get the resources you need to get unblocked!

Stacey Nordwall: Yeah!

Jennifer Kim: All right. we're right up on time, but thank you guys – glad we did this, I think our broader community has been hungry for a lot of the points that got brought up.?

Andrew Bartlow: Yeah, thanks for the invite.

Stacey Nordwall: Thanks for hosting the space!

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Next week's post will be another fun one, going into the nuances of how startup employees have been misunderstanding the value of equity – and frankly, getting screwed – and how management can step up to look out for their people. Don't miss it!

Jennifer Kim?is the CEO/Founder of?Workflow, an education and consulting company that trains the next generation of startup leaders on all things Recruiting, People Ops, and DEI. Through its flagship program, the HireEd Accelerator, Jen and her team have taught hundreds of startup leaders to make hiring a competitive advantage. Previously, Jen was Head of People at Lever and advised dozens of top startups. She is known for her hot takes on tech industry and culture as @jenistyping.