Lonnie Wilson的动态

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Principal Consultant, Owner of Quality Consultants

Are you a Deming Geek? One of my passions in life is to perpetuate the philosophy of Dr. Deming.?In so doing I have spent a great deal of time asking, and attempting to answer, “If what he says is so good, why do so few do it?” I went on a search for his weak points and I found several.?One came up today in our book study on “The New Economics.”?He said: “A system is a network of interdependent components that work together to try to accomplish the aim of the system.” The great systems thinkers including ?Meadows, Beer, Ackoff, Senge and Forrester use the word, “interrelated” components” not interdependent.?They also use the work purpose, in place of aim. The difference lies in these two words, interdependent vs interrelated and aim vs purpose. Re: Aim vs purpose If you read Dr. Deming’s treatment of aim, to me it is indistinguishable from purpose Re: Interrelated vs interdependent This is at best incomplete and for my money, also incorrect. ?Interrelated includes interdependent, but it also includes dependent events, which a system has.?In Ackoff’s teaching he often used the automobile as an example of a system.?Take a tire, it must interact with a variety of components to make the system achieve its purpose, not the least of which are the wheel and the axle. What happened when the tire, irrespective of the other components, is flat and cannot function??Then the entire purpose of the car is subverted.?Hence, the entire functioning of the care is also DEPENDENT upon the tire. ? This is much like the purpose of a designed experiment (DOE) where you have major effects and interactions, both matter.?In a system you have dependent and interdependent events, the one you do not have is independent events.

DrM .

GEMBA PRACTITIONER / TRAINER : TPS / Lean /TPM / KAIZEN

1 个月

Jackie Graham : Greetings from Dr M . You were with Dr Deming during last 5 years of his life . Studying 12- Days to Deming , this is the 3rd time mentored by Balaji S Reddie , my understanding of Deming’s SOPK is rather raw . The diagram, you are fimiliar is from - DAY 12: BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER — AND MAKING IT HAPPEN. ( Dr Henry Naive ). I don’t think Dr Deming ever claimed to be THE expert on - System: Psychologise: Theory of Knowledge: Varition . He therefore used the term “Understanding “. Deming to me was telling us to look at the interplay of all the 4 for organisational Transformation. Lonnie Wilson , is a great friend of me . He has posted from his perspective & I know he has his research work done wrt Dr Deming & he has contacts with some who might have been with Deming. As a student ( Raw not a Greek) , I am not comfortable with Lonnie Wilson ‘s post . If you feel appropriate, for my clarity, help me to understand. This request is not to debate : counter Lonnie , but much more for my personal professionals clarity. Thank You ??

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Gianpaolo Leuci

Strategy & Organizational Advisor | Managerial Economist | Solutions Seeker | Strategie, modelli, sistemi, metodi, strumenti e soluzioni per elevare la performance / redditività e gestire il rischio.

1 周

Let me return for a moment to the question of the conceptual term associated with the connection of the parts of a system. It does not seem to me that the term "interrelated" is the dominant one among the great systems thinkers, as you say. D. H. Meadows almost always uses the term "interconnected" or "interconnections". R. Ackoff prefers "interaction" (see image part 2 of this). Interaction (like interconnection) is a different concept from "interdependent" (not for the vocabulary that puts them as synonyms together with interellated, correlated, .....). The second includes the first, the first is a necessary but not sufficient condition for there to be interdependence. To express a concept there is its "one best term". The question you raised exists at least on a terminological level. In socio-technical systems, are there components that can be defined as merely dependent, if the difference between interaction and interdependence is valid?? Example: from group to work group (it is in Italian, I'm sorry, but it is easy to understand). (gruppo=group | interazione: interaction | coesione: cohesion | interdipendenza: interdependence | integrazione: integration | gruppo di lavoro: work group) (part 1 of 2)

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Gianpaolo Leuci

Strategy & Organizational Advisor | Managerial Economist | Solutions Seeker | Strategie, modelli, sistemi, metodi, strumenti e soluzioni per elevare la performance / redditività e gestire il rischio.

1 个月

We can see that the figures of the consultant, the researcher, the passionate studious, the critical thinker merge in you. 3 months ago, in spreading the post linked below, I added: "......It is important to understand the cause-effect relationships between variables (getting out of "everything depends on everything") as well as the analysis of interdependencies within the dynamic business system." https://www.dhirubhai.net/posts/gianpaolo-leuci-25605a321_top-leadership-style-in-entrepreneurship-activity-7249389934719954944-8bvM?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop Components or variables are the parts of the system. Events (internal, external) are those that condition it and to which the system responds.? "Interrelated includes interdependent, but it also includes dependent events, which a system has." But Deming could have agreed with this too (??). (continues)

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Eric Jennings

Quality & Continuous Improvement Professional

4 周

Lonnie Wilson , when I first picked up 'Out of the Crisis', so many years ago, I had trouble with his use of 'aim'... Starting with the first words of the preface 'The aim of this book is transformation of...' I certainly considered this statement to be 'setting direction' as in the way you might aim your bow-&-arrow at a target. In this use aim is a 'where' statement --as in where are we going in setting the direction of the company/enterprise(?) But then... Each of the chapters has at its outset a 'what for' statement --some are 'aim', some are 'purpose', a few are combo of both. I recall several times during my first read-thru of it, thumbing back across chapters to see this, and wondering about it. It seemed clear that you could go from 'aim' to 'purpose' in a straightforward way, but not always so readly go from 'purpose' to 'aim'. Later --after many years, many other studies, and actually without Webster's help, I realized how clearly 'aim' does equate to 'purpose'. Today tho ---by your inspiration, I picked up Webster, and was looking at both words --aim & purpose. Within the variations, both have a common definition of 'intent'. What is also interesting is that 'purposeful' states: 'Having a purpose or aim'! :-)

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I just had a conversation with a colleague who didn't know Deming and asked if there was a book they could read to get the gist of his teaching. I've read about Deming in a dozen sources but I didn't know where to point them for a one-stop shop. Do you have a recommendation?

Bob Stavig

Co-author of "Retaining Women in Engineering: The Empowerment of Lean Development". Visit Leanreimagined.com. Promoter of diversity. R&D Project Manager, Experience in Lean Development, Scrum, and Six Sigma,

1 个月

Lonnie Wilson getting back to the starting point of your post "If what he (Deming) says is so good, why do so few do it?" I contend that the majority of people I worked with (and I only use my 20 years in product development which spanned 100's of individuals and dozen of teams as a source of input), most people just don't seem interested in learning new stuff - and certainly not driven to learn. I was once talking to a program manager who was leading development of a brand new product offering for our business and I suggested that Eric Ries's book "The Lean Startup" might help, the individual responded "I really don't like to read books". So I don't think it is Deming specifically, of which I have a 1989 signed copy of "Out of the Crisis", I think there are learners and not learners. For anyone that has taken the Strength Finders survey, Learning is on the list of 32 so that might give us some statical information, based upon where learning is in the list. For me "learner" is in the top five, but full disclosure "empathy" is like number 30. So if you failed to succeed at something because you didn't spend any time learning, that is on you.

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Valtteri Hirsi

Pihalla, Arjessa, Jatkuvasti parantaen, coaching; jopa DI :D

1 个月

Trying to understand SOPK already 2 years running :) so Geek

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The word "interdependent" can be useful in emphasizing the interconnectedness and mutual reliance of components in a system.

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Filip Beyers

Eliminate operational and financial orderflow bottlenecks—permanently. Automate execution, ensure accountability, and cut costs by 70% with the Daily Work Manager

1 个月

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Mark DeLuzio

Lean Pioneer and Architect of the DANAHER Business System, Gold Star Father

1 个月

Insightful - I love your deep dive into Deming...keep it coming!

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